Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

[LBS-bass]

A couple of Tempo Tales.

1. I played in a 8-piece band a number of years ago that had some timing issues. Some in the band just struggled with triplets and anything off-beat. If it was 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 note they were fine, but add a dot and we're in trouble. As a simple test I had them all clap a 1/4 note beat to a metronome. They all were fine. Then I had them clap on the off-beat. Fully half of the group could not do it. And it was the same subset who struggled with off-beat playing. All of the members of this group were mature people with years of musical training. Yet, the fundament ability to sense the off-beat was not part of their abilities.

2. In church we have several drummers. Our most experienced player has been playing since the mid 1970's. He is known for speeding up everything. He'll click a temp at 100 bpm then begin playing at 108 and then speed up to 112. During the bridge when the drums are out, the leader will bring the tempo back down to maybe 105. Drummer comes in and we're up to 115. He knows about his tendency to speed up but apparently either can't fix it or doesn't think it is an issue and hasn't tried to fix it. Nice guy, but not the nicest to play with.

About #1: This is a great observation and I think the suggestion here about tricking out the metronome at 1/4 time and working on consistency between "ones" is a very good one.

I have talked with him about staying on "the one," and in particular explaining that this can mean that you have to listen to everything in between each one and reorient to one in every measure based on the feedback you're getting from the ensemble. He's gotten much better at paying attention to the music as a whole, but this is a work in progress.

About #2: Internalizing tempo is a big problem for many people. He also used to do this same thing but I have been advising him to MOVE as he counts off and to MOVE his body when he hears someone else count off. This helps.

 

[SteveCS]

The context here is that we are not talking about rubato passages, but places where you would expect a consistent tempo.

Then 2 BPM is a problem. It might be worth your man trying different weight sticks and/or adjusting kick/hat pedal spring tensions to better respond to how he moves his hands and feet.

 

[Wasnex]

This is the root of the infamous Jeff Berlin controversy: playing along with a constant reference (metronome, click, recordings) doesn't mean you have good time, you are just used to playing to a reference.

Yes I agree it's very possible to play with click and still have bad time and feel.

However, one of the best drummers I have ever played with needed a click. Without a click he was still really good, but he tended to constantly push the tempo forward in some songs. He did not rush feels, instead he tended to constantly speed up. It would not have been a problem if he sped up a little in one section and then pulled back in another, but he only speed up. With a click he was rock solid and created an incredible feel.

I have not played with a single drummer who had absolutely "perfect tempo"...and I have played with a lot of really good drummers. Some of them had better time than the guy I mentioned in the last paragraph, but they not have a better sense of feel or groove IMHO.

In all actuality, I find piano players to have the best sense of time and feel. I have played with several who could backfill in a way that sounded incredible without changing the tempo. Every note just feels like it is exactly where it is supposed to be, regardless of whether it is perfectly in time or not. Then again backfilling is probably less relevant for a drummer, because I think most people look to the drummers as the main time reference.

I get the opinion the Jeff Berlin's position is metronomes are bad because you are not learning to play with a person. I do think it would be better to practice with an incredible drummer than a metronome, unfortunately, not everyone has the opportunity to play regularly with great drummers. I personally think there are certain aspects of time and feel you can work on effectively with a metronome.

You can also pick up a false sense of security. When you play with a metronome, you alone set the rhythmic tension because the click stays exactly in the same place. When you play with a person, the process of creating the pocket tends to be interactive. If you change the pocket the drummer will most likely respond. And if the drummer changes the pocket, you will have a tendency to respond as well. So IMHO you can practice creating rhythmic tension by playing with a metronome, but the experience is not the same as playing with a person.

Whenever I start working with a new drummer, I frequently find we have to go through an initiation period where we feel for each other. During this time we figure out how to play together. The initiation process gets faster and easier with experience.

I will concede this: Although I believe the metronome can provide useful training, the truth is I rarely use one. When I was still an active pro, I used a metronome primarily when I was learning fast technical material. The metronome provided an honest broker so I new where I was and how much faster I would need to play in order to master the material at tempo. My goal was typically to master the material a little faster than it would be played. The test was having the ability to play the material accurately above tempo with a metronome.

 

[Gaolee]

I feel like I should mention here that this isn't the typical "trying to be patient with shoes in a dryer" situation. We're talking about fine-tuning someone's chops who isn't playing poorly on the whole. So while I appreciate all the comments, I really am trying to narrowly focus on whether or not I'm demanding more from him than an actual drum teacher would demand, in this very narrow area of tempo fluctuations. I'd like to hear numbers. What is acceptable to you? 2 bpm? 8 bpm? Something in between?

His fills are fine. They land where they are supposed to. Etc. etc. He loses focus here and there. It tends to become noticeable where, for example, he'll go from a simple back beat to something more busy with the hats. At that place he might start speeding up by as much as +4 bpm, because he isn't as focused on staying in time as he should be.

So this is a pretty specific issue, which is why I asked a pretty specific question.

I don't believe there's a specific number you can put on it. If it's a distraction and doesn't work with the song, then it's a problem. An audience may or may not notice 4 bpm. 8 bpm might be noticeable to people other than just the band.

 

[Gaolee]

About #1: This is a great observation and I think the suggestion here about tricking out the metronome at 1/4 time and working on consistency between "ones" is a very good one.

I have talked with him about staying on "the one," and in particular explaining that this can mean that you have to listen to everything in between each one and reorient to one in every measure based on the feedback you're getting from the ensemble. He's gotten much better at paying attention to the music as a whole, but this is a work in progress.

About #2: Internalizing tempo is a big problem for many people. He also used to do this same thing but I have been advising him to MOVE as he counts off and to MOVE his body when he hears someone else count off. This helps.

Dancing while playing can be done behind a drum kit. I don't know how anybody plays anything without dancing, at least a little.

 

[LBS-bass]

I don't believe there's a specific number you can put on it. If it's a distraction and doesn't work with the song, then it's a problem. An audience may or may not notice 4 bpm. 8 bpm might be noticeable to people other than just the band.

The problem is I'm not talking about a performance context. I am specifically asking at what point do I draw his attention to it in a practice where it's just he and I, and my job in that context is to help him improve. Do I let him get away with +10? Should I let it go depending on my mood or what song we're playing? That's what some of these responses lead me to think. Would that be at all useful to him?

All these fluffy responses are really just not addressing the question. I appreciate all the efforts but I'm afraid I shall need to take this question to a drum instructor.

 

[Gaolee]

The problem is I'm not talking about a performance context. I am specifically asking at what point do I draw his attention to it in a practice where it's just he and I, and my job in that context is to help him improve.

All these fluffy responses are really just not addressing the question. I appreciate all the efforts but I'm afraid I shall need to take this question to a drum instructor.

Yeah, probably. I can ask my drum teacher on Saturday and see what he says as well.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah, probably. I can ask my drum teacher on Saturday and see what he says as well.

That would be awesome. Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

The problem is I'm not talking about a performance context. I am specifically asking at what point do I draw his attention to it in a practice where it's just he and I, and my job in that context is to help him improve. Do I let him get away with +10? Should I let it go depending on my mood or what song we're playing? That's what some of these responses lead me to think. Would that be at all useful to him?

All these fluffy responses are really just not addressing the question. I appreciate all the efforts but I'm afraid I shall need to take this question to a drum instructor.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to narrow it down to a specific number. IMHO the answer will vary from one situation to the next. Also it would depend somewhat on exactly how the tempo varies. Is the variation musical or not. If it sounds and feels good, it tends to be far less bothersome.

As I mentioned, I have played with drummers who could keep the tempo in a relatively tight range, but their measures constantly change symmetry so it felt like they are varying from speeding up to slowing down. So in this example the tempo only varies a little, but in a rather unmusical way. Actually as a player it drives me nuts, but the audience may not even notice. I tend to be way more sensitive to pitch and time issues when I am playing than when I am casually listening.

As an example, consider a feel where the drummer should lay back on two with the snare. Laying back on two can create a nice settled feel with a deep groove. An example of metric symmetry variation would be if the placement of beat 2 constantly varies. In one bar, 2 may be slightly behind, one bar straight on, and one bar ahead. This can create the sense of rushing and slowing down, while the tempo stays constant.

Whether you should address this sort of problem depends on if the drummer can actually perceive the inaccuracy. So I would think it should depend somewhat on the drummers skill and aptitude level. The better he is, the more sensitive you can be to the problem.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

So, I revise my initial answer of 10 bpm fluctuation in either direction to about 5%. On a 120 bpm song, that would be up to 6 bpm. 2 bpm is probably a bit too stringent and I think 5 bpm would be a good general threshold as long as it's gradual.

 

[JimmyM]

My band is having some issues starting songs at the correct tempo. Inevitably, any song that starts with a solo guitar part starts out too slow -- the guitarist likes to ease into things. Then the drummer and I are left trying to adjust on the fly. It's annoying. These are standard classic rock songs that have been around for decades...it shouldn't be that difficult.

Last night, I suggested using a metronome app – not to play along with it as a click track, but to have a reference during rehearsal for starting songs at a consistent tempo. Over time, my hope is that people will pay more attention to tempo and internalize it better. To me, it's as important as playing the right notes. The drummer seemed indifferent to the idea, and the guitarist put up the "if you listen to the originals, the tempos are all over the place" argument.

I heard a good tip a long time ago: To set your internal tempo clock before launching into a song, "listen" to the chorus in your head. It works for me.

Tempos are never going to be 100% consistent from night to night unless you play with a click or program drums. Every gig is a different story, and we are not machines. If it gets too bad, then say something after everyone gets a chance to chill, but don’t worry about slight inconsistencies. Nature of the beast.

 

[LBS-bass]

Tempos are never going to be 100% consistent from night to night unless you play with a click or program drums. Every gig is a different story, and we are not machines. If it gets too bad, then say something after everyone gets a chance to chill, but don’t worry about slight inconsistencies. Nature of the beast.

This is absolutely correct. I might be coming across here like I'm really expecting a human metronome to emerge, but when it's gig time you have to toss all the worry out the window and have fun with whatever happens. Fundamentally I'm hoping to produce a better drummer out of all this but the day I stop encouraging people to have fun playing music is probably the day someone should shoot me in the head and get it over with!

 

[buldog5151bass]

There is a difference between minor fluctuations, which can be a push and pull feature, and a runaway/dragging drummer.

 

[DirtDog]

it happens , especially live , there will be push & pull from all the players . The trick is to listen and adapt or in some cases do nothing but keep on forward . Like for ex if someone breaks a string or drops a stick . Keep going .

I learned the foot tap at a very young age in music classes , then we learned the "light tap" so the class didn't over power the stage lol . For folks that didn't have that learning experience it can be tough to lock in . I would suggest he just practice to solid straight forward music , he will eventually get it . This is a must learn for any rock drummer and it's about as straight and solid as you could ever hope for .

Check out Rick Beato’s video on how he quantized the drums on this tune. Once he mapped the beats to a grid, it was a totally different thing. Lots of push and pull and tempo drift in Bonzo’s playing - for the better IMO.

 

[LBS-bass]

I'm filing this thread under "no one actually knows, but it gave them something to talk about" and moving on. Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate all of you

 

[JimmyM]

I'm filing this thread under "no one actually knows, but it gave them something to talk about" and moving on. Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate all of you

Yep, that’s basically it. But it’s always good to get a little fresh perspective.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yep, that’s basically it. But it’s always good to get a little fresh perspective.

It is, and it's all useful in some way, so all good

 

[shoulderpet]

One of my favorite quotes was from Ringo. When the surviving Beatles got with Jeff Lynne to record those two songs of John’s using old cassette demos, Jeff wanted Ringo to use a click.

His reply was, “Click? I AM the ****ing click!”

Go Ringo!

Ringo is awesome, probably the most underrated drummer ever

 

[azureblue]

one of my favorite subjects - tempo vs groove vs "the russian dragon". Some of the early motown stuff, especially Marvin Gaye, while in the groove, would start out at on tempo and end at another. But I don't mind a little bit of fluctuation, it helps to make the tune breathe some. Little things like leaning into the pickup to the bridge and doing the bridge a little faster, then dropping back, especially on slow songs can really make the last verse really dramatic. But not keeping the groove and either dragging on rushing, is a sure sign the drummer is not feeling the song and is simply playing a drum part, as opposed to paying drums for the song. / Capisce?

There is difference between tempo issues and groove, too. It's possible to play ahead or of the beat and keep the tempo. But if the rhythm section can't keep time, then the nuances can't happen.

If the drummer is not keeping tempo, he needs to go home and work with a metronome until he can hold tempo. There's no way around it. And it is a real strain on the bass player when he has to keep the tempo solid, and the drummer is not listening to the rest of the band. If the drummer is willing to work with you, great, but that means he isn't thinking beyond his instrument, and, while you can teach him to hold tempo, he has to learn to listen to everybody, on his own time.

 

[CryingBass]

I have heard some negativity about Al Di Meola on TB over the years, but IMHO he is one hell of an ax player.

Something I remember him saying was that he almost always taps his toe when he is practicing and often performing when he is sitting down on acoustic. He says if you can't do that and keep the "real" tempo/time of a song, then you are lost. You will notice a lot of those guys also hit the tops of their AG. I think not always for the sound impact to the audience, but to give them a human tactile feedback on how well they are keeping the beat. And it is the player producing the clicks, not something else.

I think personal human playing improvement techniques like the above ( vs. clicks, etc. ) will get you to "know how to keep the beat" instinctively. You bake it in.

Me? My Mom used to hit me on the head with a wooden spoon. Splains' a lot, eh?