Double Bass That other backline

[Chuck M]

Played a wedding gig over the weekend and we used the dance band's backline and PA. I got there and the bass and bass drum were chest pounding loud while the dance band did their soundcheck. Not a good sign.

The bassist was playing a very fancy (I assume very costly) Sadowsky 5 through a made in China 112 Peavey amp. I was told I could adjust the amp to my liking. I was skeptical but did make an attempt and quickly learned that the DI level was not controlled by the gain and master on the amp and my upright was crazy loud in the mains.

I had my Aguilar Tone Hammer preamp with me and set it up and now I had not only control of the level going to the DI but also had some tone controls that work well with my Upton laminated bass. I was shocked at how good it sounded with the Tone Hammer.

We started our set of music for the open bar...piano, bass, drums and voice. The singer does material in the style of Sinatra\ Bennett. I was surprised at how good we sounded.....until the sound man "helped us". The PA was controlled by an iPad and suddenly the voice was so loud on stage that I could no longer hear the piano. We finally found the sound man and he made an adjustment so it was better but not great like at first and then.....suddenly the bass is again crazy loud in the mains.

We finished our set, were well paid in cash and went home. I had several Bloody Marys when I got home.

The sound man was a really nice guy and, like most of them, has no concept of what a jazz group should sound like. We all have stories like this, don't we?

 

[Don Hergert]

Yup. In my yearling jazz gig experience -- 2 out of 2 -- this is the rule and not the exception.

 

[Don Kasper]

like most of them, has no concept of what a jazz group should sound like.

Do they all go to the same school?
(jk)
Rare to encounter one who understands the "concept.......".
IME.

 

[Don Kasper]

To continue this conversation - for example: check out the "mix" (bass-heavy/drum-lite) on this live recording. The sonic footprint of the bass is cartoonishly over-exaggerated, in relation to the drums, AND, the rest of the band.
IMFO.
Thanks.

 

[Ric Vice]

Chuck,
Believe me when I say, I’ve been there so many times. St.Louis has some excellent sound engineers and a handfull of individuals who work live outdoor feastivals that are inexperienced, poorly trained, and overconfident in their abilities. “A little
knowledge is a dangerous thing” Thursday night I watched Bela Fleck, (Howard Levy, Victor Wooten, and Future Man) play at Powell Symphony Hall. It’s a tough room to play in with amplification, but their engineers were working their backsides of to get a decent mix, and for most of the concert they had it under their ears and hands.

 

[SAlcott]

Double bass enemy #1-the subwoofer.

 

[Reiska]

Add to that a small, hollow stage full of other bands gear and poorly done house electrics. We were the only acoustic band that evenining and when we met the soundguy first time he looked at my bass in disbelief. I saw from his face that he had zero experience on working with mostly acoustic instruments / combos, which was kinda fine as he was eager to learn and make it work. That stage is known for all sorts of humming, feedbacking and electric noise, and so it`s a survival contest every time, even with a fairly experienced sound guy. The end product sounded balanced and audience was great, but the bass sounded " my piezo, only louder ", truly awful both on stage and in the room.

 

[damonsmith]

As a rule, for jazz and improvised music, the groups I play in tend to not use house sound or backline. I do in larger trusted art venues like Roulette or Pioneer Works in NYC, for example, or when I fly. Before I got the Upshot, I'd use a backline speaker cab, now it is too easy to have my own sound.
Other small groups situations it is not recommended. Bring your own gear and put only the singer through the PA.

 

[Ric Vice]

My current solution is to bring the Remic Green, or in the past a DPA 4099 and let them use that FOH. The Pickup only goes back to the amp.

This usually works better. For the most part sound engineers understand how to work with microphones, better than working with a piezo on

a Double Bass. It doesn't have to be an expensive microphone either. There are all kinds of decent Dynamic and Condenser Microphones that

don't cost an arm and a leg. Just my take, I'm definitely no expert on the matter.

 

[Chuck M]

This situation only comes up occasionally for me. I only have one more booking so far this year where a backline/sound engineer will be involved and that is a jazz festival in San Antonio in September. I've learned the hard way to play electric bass on that gig and I'll bring my Aguilar AG 700 and plug that into whatever bass cab(s) they have on stage. That usually works okay...and I have also learned that it may not be wise to play fretless because hearing difficulties on stage are most likely the order of the day. Once in a while I am pleased with the on stage sound however that is the exception rather than the rule.

Still....with all our complaints about sound men, parking problems, load in problems, not getting paid, cranky singers/horn players/club owners/patrons I feel blessed to be able to perform and be paid for it. A friend once told me that the worse gig he ever played was better than digging a ditch. Amen.

 

[damonsmith]

sound engineers understand how to work with microphones, better than working with a piezo on a Double Bass

This is gospel. I edited out "for the most part", even. My old policy used to be that I would let an engineer put a mic on the bass and at most a mic on the amp. I have had good results with trusted sound people at higher end venues taking a line out of my Clarus, however.

 

[okcrum]

Double bass enemy #1-the subwoofer.

Not just DB. There are an awful lot of sound techs in the wild who think all mixes should sound like the system in their car, when you can hear it go thumping down the road.

 

[GoofusInsanius]

Add to that a small, hollow stage full of other bands gear

Have you considered using cab isolation?
Some bassplayers use mats that go underneath washing machines, to decouple the cab and the stage.
I use the Auralex Gramma V2, which works great to avoid the "boom" generated by a hollow stage.

 

[Ric Vice]

It can definitely help, I use the Amp Wedge because it’s smaller. One of the biggest problems I’ve dealt with is that my ears hear the FOH better than the monitors outdoors. In ears may be the only solution for me.

 

[Reiska]

Have you considered using cab isolation?
Some bassplayers use mats that go underneath washing machines, to decouple the cab and the stage.
I use the Auralex Gramma V2, which works great to avoid the "boom" generated by a hollow stage.

Thanks for the tip!