The argument for (or) against mixing cabs - example: 115 & 410

[Fat Steve]

I'm a little surprised these threads still exist. Its like a battle since the dawn of TB. I can see a world where every time someone brings a thread like this up they are immediately redirected to a sticky and the thread closed. Im sure there are reasons for not doing this.... right?

A good reason would be that this is a discussion forum, not a library database. What I'll never understand is why folks that clearly don't want to have anything to do with the discussion join in the thread.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I would say anyone with at least half their hearing would choose any of Mesa's other big cabs over that. Easily one of the worst sounding cabs I have played through.

But But But... it's Mesa! it's one cab, with 15" and 4x10"... AND they share the same airspace? it's easy to move...?













I don't understand? oh wait, it does sound bad, and weighs more than an 8x10... recant, i got it

 

[/\/\3phist0]

This is one reason why these threads get so long and contentious. People just jump in to herp and derp and beat up strawmen without understanding (or purposely ignoring) the actual message of the "mixed cab police."

I'm on the ropes, but put me back in coach!

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I'm a little surprised these threads still exist. Its like a battle since the dawn of TB. I can see a world where every time someone brings a thread like this up they are immediately redirected to a sticky and the thread closed. Im sure there are reasons for not doing this.... right?

I always learn something, and i hope other's do too!

 

[/\/\3phist0]

I tend to listen and learn from this guy:

 

[gjohnson441496]

You'll notice by visiting profiles and reading post replies of the so called purists here at TB, that the TB'ers that have the loudest of opinions are not true purists.

They hide behind technical jargon, they hide behind the very best of equipment, they hide behind a pedal board of boutique pedals, they are in a separate camp all together, you cannot have an opinion that differs from theirs, even if it is coming from years of experience, they will resort to insulting you using indirect inuendoes, these TB'ers are the thought police of everything to do with Bass... Conform or get flamed is their motto.

I'm not a purist, I play with equipment that sounds good, period. My past experience dictates my opinion, my past experiences chooses what works and what doesn't. I rarely use pedals to shape my sound because I come from a school that the very best tones and nuances come the player not a pedal. I once watched a video of Victor Wooten playing through some of the cheapest gear and his sound was spot on. I've seen pro's at music store seminars like Doug Wimbish, Billy Sheehan, Rudy Sarzo, Michael Anthony and the list goes on play out of and from mixed cab set ups.

To see this entire thread go from asking for objective opinion to getting force fed the opinion of armchair acoustic science to the point of name calling is beyond ridiculous..

My opinion has not faltered. Play what sounds good. and never under any circumstances ask the TB community a question like I originally posted. Because you'll get beat down by the Bullwinkle mindset.. Geez

 

[Jim Nazium]

I'm an engineer and understand phase cancelling and mismatched power. I understand why mismatched cabs can be problematic.

But here's a different problem. Some people seem to switch out equipment on a regular basis, but I don't. Just don't play enough for it to make sense. I have a single Peavey 115 BVX cab with a Black Widow speaker. Sounds awesome. Really nice sound. It's a keeper and I want to keep playing through it.

Now maybe some day I'll be lucky enough to play somewhere where this single cab won't be enough. Things would be much louder pairing this with another 8 ohm cab with the head putting out more power into a 4 ohm total load and having more square inches pushing the air.

However, I can't just go out and buy another identical cab. They don't make these any more. Peavey makes a similar size 115 Headliner, but it has a different driver in it. Cabs are heavy and the used market is pretty much limited to what you can find within a short driving distance. What do I do to determine whether some other cab is going to match this, whether it's another 115 or perhaps a 210?

Probably no simple answer. All depends on the actual drivers, ported vs. sealed, size of cabinets, etc. But are there any simplifying assumptions that can help lead to selecting a second cab. Note, just saying "try it out and see how it sounds" doesn't really work since that means I'd have to drag my rig to whomever is selling the cab and cranking things up to room shattering volume just to make sure I am not deciding based on bedroom tone. Not to mention having looking for problems are various distances from the speakers.

So serious question, no trolling. Any suggestions about what to do in such a situation? As I said, there may just not be a simple answer.

I would get another 8 ohm 1x15 cab, whatever you can find, and go with that. It might not be a perfect match, but it would have to be pretty close.

If you're really worried, you could try to find a matched pair of 1x15s, use the pair for your big gigs and the single black widow for your small gigs.

 

[ThisBass]

The fact that he didn't use the word "impedance" leads me to question the rest of his feedback.

Athough I have got a master degree in electronics (RF orientated) I'm pretty sure I used the term "ohm load" already myself.

Clearly the term Impedance is the correct definition for Z=R+jX
Whereas "ohm load" in everyday language must not be considered as a wrong term per se whenever talking to average folks.
For the average folks there is no need to understand the meaning of "jX"

I would hate it to criticize every post where the equation P=U*I is abused cause it tells nothing about electrical and/or acoustical energy (or average of power) because the system isn't time invariant.
BTW human ears are sensitive only to (air-)pressure. Pressure has nothing to do with power Although power is the "motor" to generate pressure alterations at the ear drum, but ears can't detect power.
Nobody is "nitpicking" a comment if the term "acoustical power" is used to describe loudness although it's not exactly correct doing it this way, period!

So let me be an "overpowering" nitpicker.
At least the purists should have recognized contradictions like the following.

1) a 115 is nothing but an expensive cab stand for 410 casue the 15" contributes nearly nothing to the total SPL. The 410 is clearly louder than 115.

2) the 115 can cause phase issues with 410

3) if the 115 is overpowered and cries for help then it can't be heard cause the 410 is too loud to recognize the 115's farting.


If 1) and 3) is true so how can the 115 cause phase issues?

If 2) can be true so why does the 115 contribute nearly nothing to the 410, and why can't be heard if overpowered?


If I was looking for advice, asking a question at the forrum, and would get conflicting answers like above from experts who claim statements on axiomatic science considerations.
I'd reply, thank you all for this awesome help!

 

[kat888]

Something else which was mentioned in passing and important to consider, the relative efficiencies of different cabinets. What are your expected results if your 115 is rated at 99dB* and your 410 is rated at 104dB?

*apologies in advance for using the pseudo-technical terms

 

[KickingBass]

A good reason would be that this is a discussion forum, not a library database. What I'll never understand is why folks that clearly don't want to have anything to do with the discussion join in the thread.

Usually Im all for that but this kinda just seems like trolling. I've read the whole thread, its not that it isnt interesting its just weird to see the same thing so often and see nothing really change. Has anyone changed their mind as a result of this thread? Also you dont know my intentions so please dont go there.

 

[Anachronism]

Usually Im all for that but this kinda just seems like trolling. I've read the whole thread, its not that it isnt interesting its just weird to see the same thing so often and see nothing really change. Has anyone changed their mind as a result of this thread? Also you dont know my intentions so please dont go there.

I've learned from these threads: some of the potential pitfalls of mixing cabs, how to best mitigate those problems if you do mix cabs, and that some people are obnoxious on both sides.

 

[KickingBass]

I've learned from these threads: some of the potential pitfalls of mixing cabs, how to best mitigate those problems if you do mix cabs, and that some people are obnoxious on both sides.

That's true. And who to ignore. Mixed drivers seem to bring out some interesting characters. I guess there are still things to learn from these kinds of threads then, I stand corrected.

 

[Discount Saint]

So, I don't want to weigh in on either side here, but I will say that I have always used mixed drivers, and I've never really been super happy with my tone. I also use a lot of effects, specifically fuzz and synthy kind of stuff, along with a little O/D, and now a bit of octaver in my clean channel to fill out the bottom when I have a lot of fuzzy whatevers going. The music I'm generally into ranges from electro-rock, almost 80's New Wave stuff, to heavier rock or borderline metal/industrial stuff. My current band leans on the heavier side, although I tend to write songs with more of an effected bass focus.

So here's my question, and feel free to weigh in on either side of the debate. I have been using the same basic rig for a number of years: Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0 into a Mesa Powerhouse 2X10 and 1X15 cabs.

My drummer insists that I sound better with the 1X15 in the mix .. he seems to think there is more bottom end when I use it, which conventional wisdom would seem to support, however what I'm hearing here seems to be that this is actually an illusion, and I might be better off matching 10's or 15's exclusively.

So, any thoughts on what I might change to optimize my sound, cut through the mix, etc?

Hey, can you guys quite fighting for a minute and answer my question?! Geez!

 

[ThisBass]

@Bassmec made a couple of very brilliant points in his earlier posts about what is really important if you play with PA support.

I myself experienced way to often that all of these (possible) phase anomalies in combination can cause a somewhat diffuse image of over-all stage sound image.
While I always had a very clear and articulated sound at the beginning of sound check, whenever sound check was finished the very first "clarity" was gone. Especially the front line wedges can become problematic if there is way more "information" at this front line wedges than vocals. Some bandmates call for more "keyboard", others for more loudness of drum set, others for bass guitar(!) especially the guitar players IME.
It's all good as long stage acoustic conditions makes it possible to work but, sometimes stage acoustic is like a hellfire full of nasty reflexions and nasty modes. To be honest, a bass cab with f3 around 45Hz (or lower) would be very contraproductive in this context, independent of speaker size!
Of course it all depends. The example above belongs to classic rock stuff which demands a distinct loudness, I'd hate it to play Stearway to Heaven at living room loudness. Playing jazz music is a total different animal.

 

[KickingBass]

Hey, can you guys quite fighting for a minute and answer my question?! Geez!

Can you somehow have someone play while you listen from out in front to see how each sits in the mix in a live situation? If you play primarily with PA then that point is moot but if you dont it would really help to listen to it for yourself. Go with whichever one does the job best. If theres no need to mix them then dont mix them, you may find that the volume difference between solod and mixed is negligible. In the end trying it is the only way to know for sure.

 

[Discount Saint]

Can you somehow have someone play while you listen from out in front to see how each sits in the mix in a live situation? If you play primarily with PA then that point is moot but if you dont it would really help to listen to it for yourself. Go with whichever one does the job best. If theres no need to mix them then dont mix them, you may find that the volume difference between solod and mixed is negligible. In the end trying it is the only way to know for sure.

I guess what I'm partially looking for is an opinion on the Mesa cabs specifically, maybe in concert with my head or whatever. I'm hearing a lot of support for 2X10 + 1X15 combinations, which is encouraging, but I don't know if I'd be better off going with a single 4X10 or something maybe. There is a nice, ported Markbass 410 on sale at my local music store right now...

 

[KickingBass]

I guess what I'm partially looking for is an opinion on the Mesa cabs specifically, maybe in concert with my head or whatever. I'm hearing a lot of support for 2X10 + 1X15 combinations, which is encouraging, but I don't know if I'd be better off going with a single 4X10 or something maybe. There is a nice, ported Markbass 410 on sale at my local music store right now...

Not sure how much help I am then, sorry. FWIW I play 300 watts through a cheap discontinued GK 410 with a loud Alt. Metal band (2 guitars) and I dont think my volume has ever gone past 12 even without PA support.

 

[kat888]

I guess what I'm partially looking for is an opinion on the Mesa cabs specifically, maybe in concert with my head or whatever. I'm hearing a lot of support for 2X10 + 1X15 combinations, which is encouraging, but I don't know if I'd be better off going with a single 4X10 or something maybe. There is a nice, ported Markbass 410 on sale at my local music store right now...

Try them out. If 210 + 115 works for you, or the 410 is better, or you like a 212 ... then do/get that.

I like Victoria btw - cool city.

 

[ThisBass]

Restricted to 300 watt I'd try to go with the most efficient cab.
I'd try means I'd try cause if sound performance of a distinct cab does not fit personal needs/taste then cab efficience is meaningless (more or less).
It's really not satisfying if you are in the mix but, unhappy with the sound performance of your rig.

A 212 cab that is designed to provide some extended low end is "less efficient" when powered with 300 watt amp power versus a rather "generic" 410 powered with "poorly" 150 watt.
But, it depends, it depends on the amount of noise you need. My 212+8 cab was often enough "sketchy" when powered with my svt tube head to play that classic rock stuff. At the other hand, more efficient "generic" 12" drivers with less depth, that's very likely a different story.

 

[gjohnson441496]

Hey, can you guys quite fighting for a minute and answer my question?! Geez!

If your drummer says it sounds great, why would you want to change anything? Could you possibly be over-thinking due to this thread?