The Mark Bass cabs are also (imho) a little indistinct and fuzzy. The vert 410 arrangement works really well. Get the new ones if you can swing it, the drivers and crossover network are much improved in the newer versions.
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The argument for (or) against mixing cabs - example: 115 & 410
- Thread starter WaynerBass
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I'm going to try putting my 210 and 115 in very position just as a test, abs maybe I'll look into some new cabs.. so in the past year I will have replaced my bass, my entire pedalboard and pedals, save a few things, plus a bunch of new pedals.. And now maybe cabs. And hell I'll cap it off with a Shuttle 9.0 to match the two new 800 watt cabs.
Jebus, what a life!
Vert rocks.
Your first post mentioned the drummer liking extra bass with the 15 added. Any two cabs not suffering gross misphase ( commonly bad wiring or lack of following + = tip = push convention ) will sum the low end well and give a big boost.
The 210 box from Mesa is not very bottom heavy. I love the 610 and thought a 210 would be a scaled down version of it. I was wrong. I hated the sound of that box solo. The 115 was quite nice by comparison. I'd gladly take two of those over the 210 115 stack. The physical internal volume of the cab is as important, possibly more important, than the driver size. If the 115 is good, then two will be better.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut. The fact that it can be done doesn't mean it always works.
Interesting, so potentially a second 210 might produce a similar low-end bump?
Yes. Like a 410 but a 210 pair stacked tall vert gives a more representative sound of what is going out to the room when you are not in the PA and little stage room.
If your current cabs do the job I don't see any particular reason to dump them. I often run a mixed breed 115 210 vert stack myself. It would be nice to have a matching set of new Powerhouse 210 though.
IIRC it was BFM who did this statement about a strong relationship of "physical" internal cab volume and reachable low response.
Based on rather "generic" driver family and rather standard ported cab design this statement is broadly acceptable.
But there are exeptions to the rule like Acme cabs, these are rather smallish cabs with imposing low response.
There are also the compound cabs where two drivers act like a "new" driver which demands for 1/2 of "physical" internal volume.
Lots of pro PA drivers are designed to work best in a rather smallish chamber. That does not mean that low response can't be improved with a bigger volume but, it means that alignment of filter characteristic will be beyound quasi Butterworth alignment. At the extreme the frequence response shows a noticable ripple (similar like it was an underdamped characteristic) and falls down like a rock below tuning.
I used to run with mixed cabs -- 210 + 115 or 410 + 115. Sounded great to me. I never considered matched drivers, because the mixed thing made so much sense: lows from the 15 and punch from the 10s. I rocked this way for many years.
And then I came to TalkBass. The matched-driver advocates -- well, I resisted, but -- they had this science thing on their side, and I think science generally works. So, I really listened to my rig -- with my mixed cabs and with each cab separately. My 410 and 115 actually sounded better alone to me. They were clearer and their individual characteristics came through. The 410 had an in-your-face drive, deep lows, and popped in my chest. The 115 was warm, had clear mids and enveloped me with an airy sound. Together, they were more indistinct and had less character. These were my particulate cabs (GK Neos) and my ears, so YMMV.
Then I spent a day at GC trying 2 410s, 2 115s and 2 112s, as well as the mixed combinations of each. (Let me digress here and express thanks for the patience and service of the GC sales rep who really took an interest in what I was doing and helped greatly moving cabs around to stack them -- not always my GC experience.) My ears told me that the best rig for me was 2 212s; second was the 2 410s; and last was my 410/115 combination. Wish I thought to try this before. I made the purchase and sold my old cabs. (This time, GC earned my patronage.)
Now, I share my story not to bludgeon anyone into the match-cab dogma, as it's been called, but rather to emphasize the importance of trying those mixed cabs and comparing them to matched-driver rigs. Let your ears tell you what to run. But if you haven't compared that mixed-driver set-up to matched drivers, well, do you really know you have the best sound for you?
If you're buying blind without trying, matched cabs will provide predictable results, I have learned from TB, and mixed drivers might work and might not. My lesson was expensive.
And lest anyone take offense, I intend no criticism and no argument. This is merely my experience. YMMV. Rock mixed cabs if you like how they work for you. But I'm a matched-driver guy. Peace, all.
And then I came to TalkBass. The matched-driver advocates -- well, I resisted, but -- they had this science thing on their side, and I think science generally works. So, I really listened to my rig -- with my mixed cabs and with each cab separately. My 410 and 115 actually sounded better alone to me. They were clearer and their individual characteristics came through. The 410 had an in-your-face drive, deep lows, and popped in my chest. The 115 was warm, had clear mids and enveloped me with an airy sound. Together, they were more indistinct and had less character. These were my particulate cabs (GK Neos) and my ears, so YMMV.
Then I spent a day at GC trying 2 410s, 2 115s and 2 112s, as well as the mixed combinations of each. (Let me digress here and express thanks for the patience and service of the GC sales rep who really took an interest in what I was doing and helped greatly moving cabs around to stack them -- not always my GC experience.) My ears told me that the best rig for me was 2 212s; second was the 2 410s; and last was my 410/115 combination. Wish I thought to try this before. I made the purchase and sold my old cabs. (This time, GC earned my patronage.)
Now, I share my story not to bludgeon anyone into the match-cab dogma, as it's been called, but rather to emphasize the importance of trying those mixed cabs and comparing them to matched-driver rigs. Let your ears tell you what to run. But if you haven't compared that mixed-driver set-up to matched drivers, well, do you really know you have the best sound for you?
If you're buying blind without trying, matched cabs will provide predictable results, I have learned from TB, and mixed drivers might work and might not. My lesson was expensive.
And lest anyone take offense, I intend no criticism and no argument. This is merely my experience. YMMV. Rock mixed cabs if you like how they work for you. But I'm a matched-driver guy. Peace, all.
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Im sure there are exceptions, and designs can be altered to accommodate various drivers. My personal experience with this was owning a Barefaced Super Midget and Super Compact and a Big Baby 2. All three use the same driver. All designed by the same guy who is very knowledgable and particular. The biggest difference aside from the tweeter, is the physical volume of the cabs. They each have presented differently to my ears. The SMidget didn't quite feel right as a stand alone cab in terms of volume and lows (for my needs) but the other two bigger cabs each have shown themselves capable. Alex will tell you the SM and SC are equal in terms of output, but there is a sonic difference to my untrained ear listening without any measuring devices.
I still find these threads curious. Nobody says you can't mix drivers and stumble into a desiresble result. Nobody says your rig sounds bad simply because it has mixed drivers. Generally, it is pointed out that without a crossover, the idea of 410s doing a mids thing and 115s doing a lows thing is flawed logic. If a user has a mixed cab combination that works, then there is no need to change course to satisfy TB. The flip side is that a cab you don't like certainly won't get better by adding a second one of the same so they match. The point is that you should find one cab you like, and then double that for the most consistent and predictable results, if you have that luxury. Budget, availability, location on the globe, and a host of other issues cloud this selection process for many users.
It's funny, in over 20 years of playing bass, I've never considered using 12s.
Always thought of them more as guitar drivers, and I've always thought they looked kind of awkward in pairs, but when I hear people talking about how much they love their 12s, I'm reconsidering that.
dawind99
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- Mar 30, 2012
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Stick a fork in it....it's done.Thank's a lot for sharing this experience value. It reads like a howTo to find personal tone.
IMO that's a very valid point and can (or better should) be applied to any rig as a good validating quality criteria.
I myself experienced indistinct character with matching "generic" 15"'s. I would never claim it was an disqualifying issue that makes the cabs unusable, but the "indistinct" impression was there at some point with multiple maching 15"s. But also had similar indistinct character with 210+115.
There are different situations possible that can cause an "indistinct" characteristic.
Inappropriate crossover for the HT/horn thus the HT/horn competes with response of the woofer.
Stacking "pseudo" matching cabs, for instance "gerneic 212 + 2-way 212-6, may be the 6" is crossed around 1kHz and the woofers are low passed. So both cabs in combination will very likely cause an inferno at mids and treble.
A little bit of topic but I think interesting well enough to be mentioned. Often enough I had to fight discussions with event promoter cause the suitable place for PA rig was reserved for seats.
Try to imagine how less appreciative average folks receive a reasoning that the seats must be swapped for the PA to prevent a "indistinct" sound in the house.
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The easist way for me to get with a brilliant sounding, high powereing, rig was to get with one side of EV eliminator i-series PA. That's a 18" loaded band-pass sub + top 15" ported / horn.
I had to add a L-pad to adjust horn loudness for personal taste of treble response. Never the less it's the best (neutral) sounding rig I ever played for bass guitar application.
But there are some drawbacks, although I like EV stuff very much for it's musical sounding performance, never the less the rig is very neutral sounding.
The second drawback is the rig is nearly as bulky as two 410 cabs.
Trying to find a smallish 212+x that does similar the same like the EV eliminator is like seeking a needle in a hystack. There are very less "full range" drivers available that provide sufficiant low response, top end, Xmax, efficiency, dispersion pattern, thermal power handling, neo-driver, to make an "all rounder" working.
And if a driver is held out in prospect, >200 $bucks per driver is a killer outside DIY or custom shop for every marketing department.
ok, getting a single cab that meets all my needs? The legendary EVM-series comes in mind. Unique voicing but, this driver series is as is, very heavy in weight, and impossible to get an f3 response around 50Hz without "distinct" supplement.
I've read all 17 pages of this thread. I'm in the believe the science camp, but I'm not against someone else running mixed cabs if that's what their situation called for. I've learned a lot, including instances of how to be sarcastic without being evil about it.
Thanks for chiming in with advice. This is probably what I will do since I don't nee the second cab right away.
Question: does anyone know if used gear that shows up on a GC search but is in some other area of the country, whether they add a charge for shipping it to your local outlet? Now, I am a "patronize your local shop" kind of guy, even more so with one of my other interests - cycling. But GC is huge and in fact does have such a match to my cab in their used gear search, but it is located nowhere near me. Yeah, I could call and ask, but maybe someone here knows.
I love TalkBass. Thank you for the entertainment. My parents couldn't afford science camp. And I thought that combo's were for Mexican Restaurants and mix and match was a bucket of chicken from Popeye's! Did somebody mention sarcasm?
Mixed cabs - Here is what Ampeg says on their web site about the SVT-15E speaker cab: "Team it up with the SVT-CL head and an SVT-410HE, for top-end, and you’re guaranteed to get the dance floor moving". and, about the SVT-410HE cabinet: " The Ampeg SVT-410HE is also the ideal enclosure for the player who wants to add extended upper register clarity to a system that already features ample low frequency performance. Just ask George Clinton—he uses an SVT-410E to round out the top-end of his killer, all-SVT stage setup"......... Sooooo... are Ampeg's comments legit or are they just trying to sell cabinets (or maybe both?)
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