The basic flaw in the p-bass

[dkelley]

the tonestyler totally rocks - too bad it's insanely overpriced for the price of the components.

I always go into my passive guitars (and bass while I own a passive) and mess with capacitors on a project board to see what sounds coolest. I normally leave tone controls either dimed or nearly all the way off since I either like lots of treble or that resonance shift, and I personally normally dislike reduction of treble. This is why I loved my Alembic so much back in the old days - two variable Q variable frequency low pass filters, one for each pickup, and they were buffered from each other so they didn't affect each other's tone. I got the most amazing tone from that - it could go from j ish to ric-ish to anythign else, all the while sounding beautiful and present.

filters are amazing things. even a little capacitor and knob on a passive pickup!

 

[Hopkins]

Dude. You're just not getting it. It IS possible and it DOES happen and it's REAL. Yes, in a PASSIVE circuit. Do some research. Sometimes what intuitively seems wrong, isn't.

Is there a graph that shows a certain frequency at a higher output with a tone control rolled off vs a pickup wired with no tone control at all? If the level of that frequency never gets higher than the straight pickup output then it is not a boost.

 

[socialleper]

Its interesting that Entwistle said that. His solution to a single P set up not having enough bass was to have 2 P sets in a Buzzard (although some of his basses did have the twin soapbar humbuckers.)

 

[JimmyM]

the tonestyler totally rocks - too bad it's insanely overpriced for the price of the components.

What about for the labor involved in making them? It's not just the components you're paying for. I thought it was reasonable, and I totally love it on my 09 Precision and will probably put it on my PJ modded 76 Precision as well.

BTW, Stellartone quit making the 16...only 10 and 6 now.

 

[thiocyclist]

Is there a graph that shows a certain frequency at a higher output with a tone control rolled off vs a pickup wired with no tone control at all? If the level of that frequency never gets higher than the straight pickup output then it is not a boost.

Go look at John K's graph (I've said this a few times now and he posted it pages ago).

EDIT: Here, since you apparently missed it. (See those lines that are above the green line and list a cap value, with lower peak frequency than the green line?)

 

[thiocyclist]

BTW, Stellartone quit making the 16...only 10 and 6 now.

Honestly 6 sounds like plenty.

 

[thiocyclist]

I have things to do beyond my keyboard.

I do see some good points on the topic. However, I simply do not hear it in any of my basses. It could very well be there and just subtle, but I cannot hear it no matter what I do.

So your bass doesn't do what mine does in my recording? What kind of circuit are you running? Special pickups, etc.? Active?

 

[FunkRenegade]

There is definitely "boost" happening by your definition. 5 is higher than 0

There have been arguments throughout this tread about a mid boost with the tone rolled off. I said calling it a boost is not accurate do the nature of a passive circuit. I never said that certain frequencies couldn't be more present in certain ranges of the tone control. But to boost the frequency the output of that frequency would have to be higher than the pickup could generate if the tone pot was not in the circuit, which is not possible with a passive circuit.

 

[dkelley]

What about for the labor involved in making them? It's not just the components you're paying for. I thought it was reasonable, and I totally love it on my 09 Precision and will probably put it on my PJ modded 76 Precision as well.

BTW, Stellartone quit making the 16...only 10 and 6 now.

I'm not saying it's not worth it! I'm saying if we only had time to do these things ourselves we could do it for $20 plus time spent and the cost of solder. but I'm all for getting a working warrantied product that's well built ;-)

 

[dkelley]

Go look at John K's graph (I've said this a few times now and he posted it pages ago).

EDIT: Here, since you apparently missed it.

note: the output level, frequency, variation and amount of capacitance to perform those alterations are all dependent on the pickup and any other variables (such as stray capacitance in the cable or too long of a cable or incorrectly chosen or configured load that the bass is plugged into).

 

[thiocyclist]

Perfect. That image demonstrates the phenomenon exactly as I hear it. (Even the frequencies, about 3 kHz vs. 500 Hz.)

 

[isher1992]

the tonestyler totally rocks - too bad it's insanely overpriced for the price of the components.

It's also insanely easy to make:

The one on the right is made from a super small PCB-mount switch from Small Bear. Caps are .01, .022, .033, .047, .068, .1 uF.

The one on the left has the .01 nixed in lieu of a .022 for bypass. It was originally intended to have all the other caps wired to an inductor. It's a cheap, 10-15 dollar thing to make.

 

[thiocyclist]

note: the output level, frequency, variation and amount of capacitance to perform those alterations are all dependent on the pickup and any other variables (such as stray capacitance in the cable or too long of a cable or incorrectly chosen or configured load that the bass is plugged into).

Yeah, I'm just trying to drive the point home... with a sledgehammer at this point.

 

[dkelley]

interesting to note that in the graph for the tonestyler someone posted above it has two cutoff frequency points (possibly only 2 capacitance values?) with what looks to be 3 different resonance damping factors (possibly a resistor or 2 added to the cap?) for each of those cutoff frequencies.

There are some situations where output can be louder with the right capacitor than with no capacitor but again it depends on the values presented to the preamp load by the rest of the bass (which in our example is just pickup straight to preamp assuming volume is dimed and only a capacitor is switched in our out).

 

[dkelley]

Yeah, I'm just trying to drive the point home... with a sledgehammer at this point.

LoL - I figured I'd provide a caveat emptor for those who don't hear it or want to try this at home. ;-)

 

[isher1992]

LoL - I figured I'd provide a caveat emptor for those who don't hear it or want to try this at home. ;-)

I believe it's possible after reading some of the stuff in this thread, but I still don't hear it or notice it.

 

[thiocyclist]

I believe it's possible after reading some of the stuff in this thread, but I still don't hear it or notice it.

Tell us about your bass.

 

[RandalPinkFloyd]

That's what happens when you dis a P bass around here.
Everyone comes running to the rescue.

You mean every Fender fan boy comes flying into the thread to act irrationally? Wouldn't say that was "to the rescue". As soon as you point out the flaws in a P bass you get "omgzzz!!!! well _____ plays with one so he must suck!!!! *rolleyes* *rolleyes* p bass is all i need. I've played every single bass on the market and p bass is the greatest! james jamerson only used a p bass lulz!!!!"
Yet, the moment a virtuoso or one of the greats says something like Entwisle did here and suddenly the fan boys turn on him. I don't get brand loyalty, especially the fanatics for P basses. They are worse than iphone fan boys.


Waits for the comprehensive list of musicians who use P basses, that contains several musicians who don't use p basses.

 

[jason the fox]

I believe it's possible after reading some of the stuff in this thread, but I still don't hear it or notice it.

That's pretty much where I'm at too lol.

I won't deny it at this point, but I haven't heard anything that I'd consider useable. But I'm open to the idea that there's something going on.

 

[isher1992]

Tell us about your bass.

The two basses I've tried to listen for it are a 2006 Squier Affinity P-bass, and an '88 Kramer Striker.

The 2006 Squier still has the stock P-ups, but it's wired with 500k Alpha pots, audio taper, 0.022 film "Greenie" capacitor. Strung with Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys. The wiring is shielded, except from the pickup.

The Striker has the stock Spector pickups, and stock electronics. I'm not sure of the taper on the pots, but given that the part numbers between the two tone pots and the volume pot match, I'd guess they're audio taper as well. It has a 0.047uF film capacitor.