The basic flaw in the p-bass

[Mark Nye]

Maybe you can change my mind. I'm in Columbus, too. I own a medium scale bass btw.

You're absolutely welcome to test drive my E-series Precision. Might/might not be your cup of tea, but I love it to death.

(Full disclosure: It is in the process of being modded to my liking. Already gutted/rewired it, added a Duncan 1/4-lb. and a higher mass bridge. Hipshot Ultralites are the next project to combat the slight neck-heaviness that accompanies the smaller body. When it's done, I'm anticipating a monster. It sounded fine before, but keeps getting better as I tweak it.)

(Another full disclosure: I like oddball Fenders. A lot.)

 

[Pilgrim]

IMO the only flaw in the P-bass is that it's too simple for many to appreciate. Instead of adding switches, changing pickups etc etc etc....just play the darn thing.

 

[Hopkins]

Science clearly says a passive tone control CAN alter the resonance frequency of the circuit. We're not ADDING boost, we're altering the boost that already exists in the circuit. Although we actually CAN magnify it at certain frequencies with certain changes to the circuit in certain situations.

Kindly, you clearly haven't read up on why different pickups sound different from each other.

This is almost entirely to do with the resonance frequency of the resulting circuit and Q (increase in output level) at that frequency. And that frequency can be altered by adding capacitance and so on, as clearly discussed here and known by circuit designers for as long as there have been electronic circuits.

There have been arguments throughout this tread about a mid boost with the tone rolled off. I said calling it a boost is not accurate do the nature of a passive circuit. I never said that certain frequencies couldn't be more present in certain ranges of the tone control. But to boost the frequency the output of that frequency would have to be higher than the pickup could generate if the tone pot was not in the circuit, which is not possible with a passive circuit.

 

[dkelley]

There have been arguments throughout this tread about a mid boost with the tone rolled off. I said calling it a boost is not accurate do the nature of a passive circuit. I never said that certain frequencies couldn't be more present in certain ranges of the tone control. But to boost the frequency the output of that frequency would have to be higher than the pickup could generate if the tone pot was not in the circuit, which is not possible with a passive circuit.

I see where you're going now. Well we're calling it a boost to differentiate that from those who believe the tone control only cuts treble. That statement is incorrect as the tone control actually does two things like I described.

Semantics LoL

By the way friends... The lowering of resonance frequency trick plus reduced treble is the signature jazz guitar tone also. 335s are middy but not THAT middy. My Les Paul does a great jazz hollow body emulation by turning down the tone knobs ALL the way... You don't get the mid boost unless both are cranked down because there is no buffer between the two tone controls.

Blah blah blah

This has been a good talk guys!

Oh.. And boosts are entirely possible with passive circuits using step up transformers LoL... But we won't go there.

 

[Hopkins]

You are just wasting your time with any explanation beyond the most redundant!

I guess you are the great and powerful one whos theories and opinions are the only ones that matter

 

[jason the fox]

I see where you're going now. Well we're calling it a boost to differentiate that from those who believe the tone control only cuts treble. That statement is incorrect as the tone control actually does two things like I described.

Semantics LoL

By the way friends... The lowering of resonance frequency trick plus reduced treble is the signature jazz guitar tone also. 335s are middy but not THAT middy. My Les Paul does a great jazz hollow body emulation by turning down the tone knobs ALL the way... You don't get the mid boost unless both are cranked down because there is no buffer between the two tone controls.

Blah blah blah

This has been a good talk guys!

Oh.. And boosts are entirely possible with passive circuits using step up transformers LoL... But we won't to there.

This thread is gradually going further over my head lol.

I understand what you're saying though. Not a 'boost' per say, but a mid bump, maybe.

I'll stay open to the idea. I still have a tough time believing a passive tone circuit can 'add', but I'm far from an expert on this stuff.

 

[FrednBass]

My non-Fender p-bass (build by a luthier) has a mudbucker pickup.

While the "boost" thing does not happen with the slip-p pickup (and this being the main concern here) on my bass, it does happens VERY noticible with the mudbucker. When tone at 0, the volume is 10% louder than when the tone is fully open.
And Mudbucker tone 0 alone is louder then Mudbucker tone 0 + Split-P tone 0.
Go figure...

 

[dkelley]

My non-Fender p-bass (build by a luthier) has a mudbucker pickup.

While the "boost" thing does not happen with the slip-p pickup (and this being the main concern here) on my bass, it does happens VERY noticible with the mudbucker. When tone at 0, the volume is 10% louder than when the tone is fully open.
And Mudbucker tone 0 alone is louder then Mudbucker tone 0 + Split-P tone 0.
Go figure...

Cool
Proof is in the mud...er, pudding? Um.....

 

[FunkRenegade]

Nope. You missed the point entirely. How many times do people have to explain the resonance frequency?

Don't give me that science nonsense. Science says a passive tone control can only cut a certian frequency range of the signal. To me this boost flys directly in the face of science.

I am the last person you can acuse of believing all the voodoo and snake oil that comes with guitar tone.

 

[Hopkins]

Nope. You missed the point entirely.

Read my post above before you call me ignorant.

 

[George Mann]

I guess you are the great and powerful one whos theories and opinions are the only ones that matter

Indeed! But on the other hand, I was just pointing out the obvious!

 

[thiocyclist]

This thread is gradually going further over my head lol.

I understand what you're saying though. Not a 'boost' per say, but a mid bump, maybe.

I'll stay open to the idea. I still have a tough time believing a passive tone circuit can 'add', but I'm far from an expert on this stuff.

Just look at John K's graph and watch how the resonant peak moves down in frequency. Clearly, those frequencies (the peak ones) are now higher than they were before at the the other tone position. It's higher dB than the pot wide open... call it a boost or not, some frequencies are louder than when the pot's wide open.

The idea posted by Hopkins that science says this can't happen just belies a lack of understanding of what the science actually says about LC and LRC circuits.

EDIT: The whole reason I brought this phenomenon up was to offer an explanation why some people think P Basses sound better with the tone way down and why some people like the OP may think there's something "flawed" about them with the tone full up... of course this is actually true of all passives but the P Bass seems to get the flack for it (maybe because in such a simple circuit it's easiest to observe).

 

[thiocyclist]

No, we just want you to chill out and enjoy the brotherhood of Talk Bass!

Forgive me for getting annoyed at people who refuse to acknowledge a measurable phenomenon.

 

[Mark Nye]

Forgive me for getting annoyed at people who refuse to acknowledge a measurable phenomenon.

Science is all well and good, so long as it doesn't refute my long-held blind convictions!

 

[David Jayne]

There have been arguments throughout this tread about a mid boost with the tone rolled off. I said calling it a boost is not accurate do the nature of a passive circuit. I never said that certain frequencies couldn't be more present in certain ranges of the tone control. But to boost the frequency the output of that frequency would have to be higher than the pickup could generate if the tone pot was not in the circuit, which is not possible with a passive circuit.

Dude. You're just not getting it. It IS possible and it DOES happen and it's REAL. Yes, in a PASSIVE circuit. Do some research. Sometimes what intuitively seems wrong, isn't.

 

[David Jayne]

Anyway the 'basic flaw' as I see it is they usually have 20 frets. I would prefer 21.

 

[thiocyclist]

I'm so glad other people are backing me up on this after last night. It's such an easy phenomenon to observe, I am amazed at the resistance to it. People correctly acknowledge a tone control doesn't add bass but it does change resonance and essentially boost some frequencies so the truth lies in-between the two dogmas (it adds bass [wrong] vs. it takes away treble [right but not the whole truth]).

A varitone like a ToneStyler in part sounds as good as it does because of its ability to change the character by modulating the peak resonance without the resistance in between to suck the life out of the mids.

 

[dkelley]

I feel bad because I can't describe tone, even after all these years blogging on the internet. It's good or bad to my ears.

that's all that matters imho! good or bad to you... then fly with that :-D

 

[dkelley]

Science is all well and good, so long as it doesn't refute my long-held blind convictions!

LMAO

 

[isher1992]

Hm, the critics have gone silent.

I have things to do beyond my keyboard.

I do see some good points on the topic. However, I simply do not hear it in any of my basses. It could very well be there and just subtle, but I cannot hear it no matter what I do.