The basic flaw in the p-bass

[chris_b]

I always wondered if Entwhistle would not have been more satisfied with a 4-string Baritone guitar than a bass?

I bet JE tried a few of those as well.

 

[chris_b]

What would you guys consider a good “low end” bass (genuinely curious)?

JE's problem was he wanted a pre amp to boost all the frequencies. A passive P bass with one tone control was never going to be enough for him.

I can get enough low end out of my passive PJ5 to make me very happy.

 

[retslock]

It's all perception. It's unlikely that the tone knob is affecting the low end at all. If your hearing more upper mids and highs it may seem as if your bottom end gone.

Am I missing something? I was always led to believe that the tone control on a passive P bass had no effect on the bass frequencies but simply rolled off the highs. It doesn’t boost anything but cuts the top end.

 

[Continuum]

I HATE the design of the P pickup. It has a damn screw in the middle!

Terrible for a thumbrest!

 

[Bass V]

Entwhistles P-bass tone in '69 when i saw the Who perform Tommy during its debut tour was more grind-y (round wounds) through his dual Hiwatt stacks, but never lacked bottom. In fact it struck me as glorious tonally. This was in Detroit's Grande Ballroom about a 1-2000 head venue.

lucky you!

 

[Bass V]

Ox on P

 

[Robscott]

The Basic flaw of the P-Bass is that it doesn't have enough flaws.

It would have been much better if the worlds first successful production electric bass had been riddled with flaws that we could have taken 50 years to figure out.

Then we could look back at the old Model P with nostalgia.

Instead, this dude hits a home run on his first at bat, a Grand Slam home run on his second at bat (with the split coil), and a triple on his third up (the Jazz) .

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can we have that in cricket scores please?

 

[logdrum]

No HPF recommendation on page 1. Tsk, tsk. I expected threads abpout lack of low or too much low or not cutting to be HPF-ied.

 

[Just George]

I keep the volume knob all the way up and back off a little on the tone knob and then control most of the tone from my Ampeg...Plenty of lows. Also, I use flatwounds.

 

[pappabass]

1st, I play a P bass, (pictured). Every P bass I have owned & played sounds as you describe. Mine has EMG pickups. Nature of passive single tone knob guitars. Tone is either low OR high. That is why I also have a active preamp bass. You get the nice kicking lows with a little crisp on the top to punch thru the mix. You can accomplish this with the amp or preamp, but its a lot easier getting that good sound from just adjusting the active preamp on the guitar. Try one.

 

[Pilgrim]

I went to an outdoor party and our band played and some others as well. In my band one of the guitar players is also a bass player. I brought 3 basses and he brought a guitar and a bass. So at the end I plug in his p-bass with flats. He has always bragged about the low end from this bass. So I plug it into my Rig. An Ampeg with 2 2x10 cabs and a line out into the PA, and I turn up both knobs and to my surprise the was very little low end, just a lot of midrange plunky noise and clicks and fret buzz.

Although the P-bass is correctly credited with being rather mid-range oriented, I see the problem in this approach.

Take P-bass. Install flats. Now turn the treble control DOWN, preferably to zero, but no higher than 50%. That's when a P-bass sounds its best.

 

[Ric5]

Although the P-bass is correctly credited with being rather mid-range oriented, I see the problem in this approach.

Take P-bass. Install flats. Now turn the treble control DOWN, preferably to zero, but no higher than 50%. That's when a P-bass sounds its best.

people like myself and Entwistle aren't after that tone and when we try to get the tone we want from the p-bass it doesn't work as well … with modern amps, effects, and preamps you can get a lot more variety of tone from a p-bass but what you talk about is what it does best … my favorite p-bass has 5 strings, 2 pickups, and a preamp, and it get a hi-fi tone.

 

[chadhargis]

Great thread. I was never a fan of the P until I started paying really close attention to how the bass sits in a mix. I used to be the guy who turned up the bass and rattled the room while scoffing at those people who played above the 5th fret. As I've matured more as a player, I've learned the value of a good strong midrange. While that big fat bottom end is awesome, the low mids are really what people hear. Especially on crappy mobile devices, earbuds, car speakers, etc.

 

[Mastermold]

people like myself and Entwistle aren't after that tone and when we try to get the tone we want from the p-bass it doesn't work as well … with modern amps, effects, and preamps you can get a lot more variety of tone from a p-bass but what you talk about is what it does best … my favorite p-bass has 5 strings, 2 pickups, and a preamp, and it get a hi-fi tone.

Yeah when I grab a P-bass I'm doing so because I want that sound. If I want hi-fi I use another bass.

 

[Mastermold]

The basic flaw in the p-bass

Quote from John Entwistle ... "Once you turn up the treble on a Precision, the bottom drops out In big arenas, I wasn't getting enough bottom end from the P-Basses when I had the treble all the way up."

I re-discovered this last weekend ... I went to an outdoor party and our band played and some others as well. In my band one of the guitar players is also a bass player. I brought 3 basses and he brought a guitar and a bass. So at the end I plug in his p-bass with flats. He has always bragged about the low end from this bass. So I plug it into my Rig. An Ampeg with 2 2x10 cabs and a line out into the PA, and I turn up both knobs and to my surprise the was very little low end, just a lot of midrange plunky noise and clicks and fret buzz.

The basses that I had were a 5 string Rickenbacker a 5 string jazz with a stingray pickup in the bridge and a frankensteined 2 pickup SG bass also with 5 strings. All 3 of these basses had more bottom than the Fender p-bass with flats.


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EDIT

I started this thread to discuss the p-bass and the nature of the tone control on this bass. At first a lot people seemed threatened and seemed to think that I hate p-basses. I like the p-bass and the jazz bass, and many other basses. The thread has developed into a good discussion of what happens to the frequency responses of the p-bass as you change settings on the tone control. The p-bass is more of a mid ranged intstrument. As you roll off the tione control it produces a lot of low mids which people percieve as low end, when the tone control is opened up it produces a lot of high mids which is percieved as high end. That is why Entwistle made the statement quoted above. I like to have treble, bass, and mids in my bass tone when playing. Also my rig and my pedal board are set up to add a lot of mids to my bass tone as I play.

Wow you started this 5 years ago??!!

 

[Ric5]

Wow you started this 5 years ago??!!

yep time flies

 

[JGbassman]

The basic flaw in the p-bass

Quote from John Entwistle ... "Once you turn up the treble on a Precision, the bottom drops out In big arenas, I wasn't getting enough bottom end from the P-Basses when I had the treble all the way up."

I re-discovered this last weekend ... I went to an outdoor party and our band played and some others as well. In my band one of the guitar players is also a bass player. I brought 3 basses and he brought a guitar and a bass. So at the end I plug in his p-bass with flats. He has always bragged about the low end from this bass. So I plug it into my Rig. An Ampeg with 2 2x10 cabs and a line out into the PA, and I turn up both knobs and to my surprise the was very little low end, just a lot of midrange plunky noise and clicks and fret buzz.

The basses that I had were a 5 string Rickenbacker a 5 string jazz with a stingray pickup in the bridge and a frankensteined 2 pickup SG bass also with 5 strings. All 3 of these basses had more bottom than the Fender p-bass with flats.


***************************************************************

EDIT

I started this thread to discuss the p-bass and the nature of the tone control on this bass. At first a lot people seemed threatened and seemed to think that I hate p-basses. I like the p-bass and the jazz bass, and many other basses. The thread has developed into a good discussion of what happens to the frequency responses of the p-bass as you change settings on the tone control. The p-bass is more of a mid ranged intstrument. As you roll off the tione control it produces a lot of low mids which people percieve as low end, when the tone control is opened up it produces a lot of high mids which is percieved as high end. That is why Entwistle made the statement quoted above. I like to have treble, bass, and mids in my bass tone when playing. Also my rig and my pedal board are set up to add a lot of mids to my bass tone as I play.

If Entwistle truly believed this, he had no concept of how sound works. Turning up treble will not make the bass go away. He obviously did not know how to eq his rig.

I feel the P bass has way more bottom end compared to a jazz bass. I know they didn't have the technology back then we have now, but there has never been an issue getting any tones out of any of my basses.

Maybe compared to the muddy humbucking tones from the Gibson's or mudbucker in the tele basses it would sound thinner, but in a good way as opposed to a bad way.

While I like Entwistles playing, it appears he is miles away from understanding the concept of sound.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

If Entwistle truly believed this, he had no concept of how sound works.

I heard Entwistle in the mid 80's. He's one of the last people living or dead I'd look to for advice on getting a good live sound.

 

[Ric5]

my kind of p-bass

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Yes, it's an old thread, but @dkelley is still here. I checked.

That low mid resonance (discussed at length in the middle of this thread, and elsewhere) is one of the best kept secrets on TalkBass, and shall remain so for all eternity.

I normally leave tone controls either dimed or nearly all the way off since I either like lots of treble or that resonance shift

Yeah, mine are almost always at zero to get that resonance. One of my favorite things.

This is why I loved my Alembic so much back in the old days - two variable Q variable frequency low pass filters, one for each pickup, and they were buffered from each other so they didn't affect each other's tone. I got the most amazing tone from that - it could go from j ish to ric-ish to anythign else, all the while sounding beautiful and present.

There is a delicious edge in the track at this link, which is said to be an Alembic.
Do you recognize the sound?
Is it the one you were talking about?
Thanks.