Double Bass The different ear training we use..

[Andy Mopley]

Hi all
there are many, many intonation approaches, from Suzuki's tonalisation, to using a drone (and different types at that), to intervals, software use, and so on.
In practical terms, do all the different approaches lead to the same outcome, though?
I understand how for example having a drone helps with relative pitch but in so far as sharpening the ear, is it any better than playing along with a piano, or occasionally checking tuning against a harmonic or an open string, or even transcribing, provided this is what one is practicing for (as opposed to learning harmony and so on).
Regards to all

 

[Joe Nerve]

Pardon my popping in from the other side, but I suppose my experience might be helpful to some. I ONLY play by ear, and while I still have a ways to go and grow regarding that, I stumbled upon something that pushed me forward with this more than any other kind of practice I could imagine.

I started playing in a wedding band 5 years ago, and not being able to play outside of by ear and memory, I found myself in a tight spot many times. Had to learn LOTS of songs at the start, but every week had to add first dances and additional requests. Doing that while working a full time job forced me to learn songs while driving, and it was the best practice I ever discovered. At first I was just learning arrangements, but I then realized I had to start going further. I began figuring the songs out in my head, and then seeing how accurate I was when I got home with a bass in hand. It was rough going at first, but over time I realized that I had learned to visualize and hear intervals like never before. I always wanted to be one of those guys who could hear a song and just play it, but didn't know that was something you could learn. I believed those who did that were just gifted at birth. Well... I can do that now, even at times with complicated tunes.

That's all I've got . And I'm outta here.

Much respect to everyone. I have a DB. One day I'll learn to make use of it .

 

[CaseyVancouver]

A good outcome, to me, is simply improving. Improving never seems to end.

I noticed when I first started music that some beginners had the ability to get around their instrument with only a few bad notes, then we heard zero bad notes, then they played from memory beautiful melodies perfectly and in tune. One that comes to mind was a tuba player. He used to amuse us with what he could play. He has been for decades, and continues to be, the the tubist in a major Canadian symphony. Other beginners just learn a bit and fade away.

We can’t compare ourselves to some. Take pianist Horowitz. He had perfect pitch, an ‘A’ type personality and a photographic memory. In his ‘80s he would play a 2 hour concert from memory, perfectly. So you and I just do the best with what we were given.

To improve your ear and intonation, imho, you have to address it regularly. Drones work, dots on the board can help, apps like TE Tuner, recording yourself, muscle memory, open strings, harmonics, fingering options, hand positions and sight singing. Try them all.

To complicate it, the lowest notes like below E, seem to be hard for us to get in tune. Then there’s the end of the board lol.

During this covid pause in gigs I grabbed my violin off the wall, with a preconceived idea, it may help my bass intonation. The reality is I found violin intonation is WAY easier to get good than bass intonation. I can play the Eccles solo more in tune on violin than bass, even though I’ve played bass 50 years and violin 6 months. So I have really enjoyed playing violin, and will continue, but it seems to have nothing to do with bass intonation. Who’d a thunk.

The piano is complicated for bass intonation. Don’t bother using it imho. Every piano is tuned a bit different by every tuner. And there are 88 notes but 230 strings. They are tuned with the bass strings a bit flat and the highest strings a bit sharp. That’s the only way it sounds correct to our ears. (I have a grand I gotta get around to tuning lol) A freshly tuned piano is just kinda vague for bass intonation. Use it for interval and chord skills of course.

 

[Wasnex]

Hi all
there are many, many intonation approaches, from Suzuki's tonalisation, to using a drone (and different types at that), to intervals, software use, and so on.
In practical terms, do all the different approaches lead to the same outcome, though?
I understand how for example having a drone helps with relative pitch but in so far as sharpening the ear, is it any better than playing along with a piano, or occasionally checking tuning against a harmonic or an open string, or even transcribing, provided this is what one is practicing for (as opposed to learning harmony and so on).
Regards to all

In my experience, when you are performing music, the brain does not stay with one single mental process. You tend to bounce around and use multiple mental processes. IMHO there is a difference in playing an arpeggiated interval in tone VS tempering one note against a drone. You need to be able to do both, and more.

As you get more advanced you may study tempering; then you will learn that playing a pitch in tune varies depending on how it is functioning within the music. I have forgotten most of what I learned as I have not performed for over a decade. But there were multiple ensembles I worked in where we worked on tempering chords in certain passages. So over time I studied and memorized some of the rules.

IMHO learn to think about intonation from as many angles as you can. They all work together ultimately to help you play better in tune. But at the highest level you also should know some rules on tempering and review the score/perform some analysis to determine which direction you should push the pitch.

Playing against a drone can help develop your abilities to temper notes. You might consider plugging in a pickup to the tuner so it can focus on your pitch, rather than the drone. The idea is to play with certain tensions and learn what those tensions sound like.

If you get to this point, Google some articles on tempering so you know which tensions to practice. AFAIK tuners are generally setup in equal temperament, but your ears should be drawn to just temperament...the idea is you will purposely play out of tune with the tuner.

To make matters worse on this subject, the pitch center in an ensemble tends to fluctuate, and horns and string instruments tend to go out of tune in opposite directions. I.E. horns tend to go sharp while strings tend to go flat. So, as a group is performing there may be multiple pitch centers; the strings may be in one place while the brass and woodwinds are somewhere else. Because of this, the pitch may vary as lines are passed from one section to the next. Obviously this is not the goal of course, but it is something you will most likely need to deal with.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Hi all. Thanks for the responses! To be clear, I am just wondering about the effectiveness of any method, in terms of their ultimate outcome. Fully appreciate that there are many different methods, and maybe it's horses for courses, or maybe he answer is to stick to whatever works (which is almost advise that could apply to many topics here!!) ;-) Good to see people from the other side, too ;-)

 

[PaulCannon]

You should try everything and see what helps. It's actually the combination of different methods which will move you ahead.

For intonation, the things that helped me the most were the following (in order from most to least effective):
- Solfege, sight-singing, and dictation
- Practical knowledge of basic tonal and harmonic theory
- Solid instrumental technique, particularly left-hand shapes, posture, and fingering systems
- Practicing scales and arpeggios with a drone (ideally a perfect 5th, in my experience)
- Practical knowledge of more "upper-level" theory, like the overtone series and just intonation temperament
- Practicing etudes and repertoire with a drone
- Practicing scales and arpeggios with a piano (ex. Accompanied Rudiments course) for equal temperament
- Practicing etudes and repertoire with computer midi (assuming the midi is in tune)
- Playing with other human beings and matching their intonation (placement in this order varies depending on the quality of those players)
- Improvising over a drone
- Fingerboard markers / dots
- Knowledge of and experience with unusual intonation systems, like quarter tones or non-12 EDO scales

Some other things that help:
- Knowledge about your set-up, string choice, etc.
- Right hand / bow technique, and understanding how that affects intonation
- Understanding the different instruments you are playing with and their general intonation tendencies
- Understanding chord voicings and how different pitches should be adjusted and balanced within a chord (this is usually very easy from a bassist's point of view)

Some things that don't help:
- Playing with a tuner on the stand (that's a video game, not ear training)
- Using fingerboard markers / dots without listening
- Practicing without first tuning your bass

 

[Reiska]

I have been toying with " inner ear sharpening " lately, as I have had the need to get my simultaneous playing and singing together ( I sing harmonies in the folk duo I'm in ). It' s been quite a trip to seek and test different ways to improve, and one of my favourites is fairly simple: I play major scales arco, singing diatonic third on top of what I play. Not only this makes the technical side of things incredibly difficult, as there's two pitches coming out of the same machine at once, both beeing fairly physical to execute, but the real deal is in the hearing those pitches, I only hear them together when they are in tune. My brain can handle only one pitch at the time. Anyhow, open strings are my reference point when doing it, it's " more easy " to go thru scales that doesn' t involve open strings. Two octaves of E or F major will be a serious workout. My voice / bass / brain warmup consists of going thru the bass up until G harmonic like this, two octaves, starting with going down from the G harmonic before TP.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The talk I have heard of different tuning systems vs. tempering for the past 40 years is conceptually interesting but practically useless to me. All too often I hear people talking about these things as abstract concepts as though they are shooting for Mount Intonation Olympus, yet when I hear them play they are wildly inconsistent with their intonation, such that the only system it could rationally be fit into is “not consistently tune in by any measure”, AKA “full of sour notes that no explanation could sweeten after the fact”.

All this time there has been an internal intonation compass that has been constant that I hope to research more in the coming few years more out of curiosity than justification. It basically relates to the beats produced by all non-perfect intervals, and works as follows:
- Perfect intervals should be stable and calm with no perceptible beats phasing between the two notes.
- Non perfect intervals will always have beat phasing. When playing one of these there is a balance point at which the beat phasing is as slow as possible; i.e. - if the distance between the notes increases or decreases at all, the ratio of the beat phasing speeds up.

I have come to think of this as “sweet spot intonation”. It’s simple in concept yet mathematically impossible for me to conceive of because I’m no mathematician. But it works intuitively no matter whether in the context of a diad or a more complex harmony, and it also functions independent of tuning system. The better I manage to adhere to this principle, the better the music sounds. It’s also simple and intuitive enough for a dummy like me to manage to shoot for while practicing or playing, and the proof is easily available in the pudding. As always, EEMMV.

 

[PaulCannon]

The talk I have heard of different tuning systems vs. tempering for the past 40 years is conceptually interesting but practically useless to me. All too often I hear people talking about these things as abstract concepts as though they are shooting for Mount Intonation Olympus, yet when I hear them play they are wildly inconsistent with their intonation, such that the only system it could rationally be fit into is “not consistently in tune by any measure”, AKA “full of sour notes that no explanation could sweeten after the fact”.

I've found it very practical for myself, but it's mostly a matter of awareness. I find playing with a piano, for example, requires a more rigid approach to intonation than when playing with a string ensemble. A string quartet or a vocal ensemble will try to "sweeten" chords, which isn't possible on a keyboard. If you only ever play the bassline, it's not something you would generally think about unless you were really conscious of what was happening.

Extreme things like quarter tones are used quite frequently in contemporary classical music, so you need to know about it if you want to play that repertoire. In my experience, I learned a lot about "normal" intonation by digging deeper into "abnormal" intonation.

You reminded of another interesting approach David Moore showed me some years ago. He had an idea about playing "in tune with the bass itself". In other words, getting the instrument to resonate with itself. For example, if you play a low F on the E string in a very particular tuning (ever so slightly sharp) it is possible to activate the A-harmonics on the D and A strings which you might hear ringing after releasing the bow. The effect is that the F sounds more full, and the instrument rings and resonates more openly. A much easier example is playing an open D string and noticing the D harmonic on the G string is also active. Or closing the D on the A string and noticing that the open D is also ringing.

You can also practice double stops combining a natural harmonic node with a closed note. Take the D harmonic a fifth above the open G string, for example, and add in the B-flat on the string next to it. If you tune those "perfectly" together, you might find the B-flat is not the same B-flat you would hear on the piano (or if checking on a tuner).

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

You can also practice double stops combining a natural harmonic node with a closed note. Take the D harmonic a fifth above the open G string, for example, and add in the B-flat on the string next to it. If you tune those "perfectly" together, you might find the B-flat is not the same B-flat you would hear on the piano (or if checking on a tuner).

Absolutely! But the question is how to define "perfect" in this context. Intonation always exists in context, always in relation to something else. In a single line melody, each note exists in relation to the tonality that has been established previously in the line. In homophonic/polyphonic textures, each note exists in relation to the others that are sounding (and to an extent, also to where they came from in their established tonality). It's no good playing a "perfectly in tune" A440 if it doesn't sound harmonious with the other instruments sounding at the same time.

 

[PaulCannon]

Absolutely! But the question is how to define "perfect" in this context. Intonation always exists in context ... It's no good playing a "perfectly in tune" A440 if it doesn't sound harmonious with the other instruments sounding at the same time.

Exactly. That's what all this talk about "equal temperament" vs. non-equal is about.

There are a lot of situations where you need to be as close to equal temperament as possible, and that's why I would sometimes practice with piano accompaniment.

 

[paulunger]

Here's a nice intro video on what we do using the different tuning systems when playing in an Orchestra.

 

[Wasnex]

Some things that don't help:
- Playing with a tuner on the stand (that's a video game, not ear training)

Great post!

I wanted to clarify my recommendation to use a tuner in this way with a drone if possible...It's not to learn to play in tune with the tuner, rather it's to get a feel for how just intonation varies from equal temperament. In other words, it's an attempt to help condition your ear, so you can purposely play out of tune with with the tuner in an attempt to sound more in tune with the music. Hopefully that makes sense .

Practicing with a piano or a synthesizer running a midi file is fine and useful. But I think it's important to keep in mind these instrument will generally be even tempered, so it's not exactly the same as learning to play in tune with a wind or string ensemble. Of course many of us will frequently play with even tempered instruments...and guitar .

Another fairly common issue is pitched percussion instruments are frequently tuned to 442. One of the bands I worked with spent quite a bit of money to special order instruments that were tuned to 440. My memory is these instrument did sound better in the ensemble, but who knows if it was because of the lower tuning.

One might ask, Why not just tune the ensemble to 440. If memory serves me, some of the wood winds were frequently at or beyond their tuning capabilities because the brass were constantly pressing the pitch up.

 

[David Potts]

I capitulate and agree with everything that everyone above has said, including all those who, at the end of the day, are still slightly confused and bemused by terminology after watching the recommended video above.

Fresh into my big orchestra (105 players) 51 years years ago I was aghast at the tuning process. First the oboe A with his tuner on his stand, then the winds. Hang on!! They are mostly very good but second bassoon is often noticeably sharp that affects many notes we basses have in common later. Next the brass by themselves, very loudly blah blah blah, so loud they can't hear the oboe's A any more. If we are lucky the cellos and basses get the next go and my colleagues around me cannot agree on an A in time before the upper strings have their turn. By this time all the previous players are getting restless and any chance of fine tuning becomes drowned out. However, when we played together as an ensemble there were magically only occasional signs of pitch distress, almost always in wind and brass chords. It took quite a long time for me to settle down and feel comfortable. The first step was to tune carefully backstage while listening to the oboe warming up so that the amount of subsequent tweaking was minimised. The second was to deliberately desensitise a little so that I was more relaxed when the music started. The third was to be flexible and adjust rather than insist in my mind that I was "right" and everyone else was "wrong". At 28 I was still one of the youngest players in this very professional 52 weeks-a-year ensemble.

As a player and teacher I arrived at the following approach for my sanity -

(1) In my home practice I tune carefully using harmonics and check often. I warm up both physically and mentally, finishing with scale(s) and arpeggio(s) often associated with "what next" before trying to advance something musically and/or technically. I arrived at clearly pre-hearing the two tetrachords separated by a whole tone that make up each of the major and minor scales. I don't hear the separating tone, only 1 2 3 4 (pause) 5 6 7 8, focusing on leaving 1 and approaching 8 or vice versa. Rightly or wrongly, for my students I call this my "absolute" pitch. As they practice I ask them to have two things highlighted in mind, Intonation and ......
(2) On the rare occasions that I play with piano I tune my open strings to the same name notes in the middle octaves of the keyboard to make the adjustments to tempered pitch more manageable.
(3) Most of the people I play with in small ensembles are as or more experienced and comfortable with pitch than me. If I can pre-tune ok then I can concentrate on good "relative" intonation, not having to adjust much.
(4) Bigger ensembles, these days local community orchestras for me, are more forgiving pitchwise because of a wider range of instruments and abilities. If I am not the leader (Principal) I have to follow - up to a point!! It matters to me that I still play all the notes in tune, clearly and confidently for my own satisfaction but being careful not to offend. If each of the other section members is strong but flexible and feels the same way then we can focus on making one Bass Section sound coming from 2 to 8 players. Here a good Principal can really help. When all is going well I can forget fretting about intonation and enjoy being in the moment, bathing in the sounds of the orchestra which is the reason why I still find playing deeply satisfying after so many years.

 

[jj.833]

I am just wondering about the effectiveness of any method, in terms of their ultimate outcome.

I was consistently practising intonation for a year now. Given no opportunity to play with real people during lockdown, I thought this was the best thing to do with my time. I play big band and jazz, I play double bass for some 15 years. I get paid for my music but I'm no professional. What I was doing this last year:

1. Practising scales with a bow. With and without drone. All keys, all possible fingerings. Peak through Rabbath 2 and 3 to grasp the principle (pivoting is not obligatory). The benefit of many keys and fingerings, tuning-wise, is that you get a notion about how much your inner ear is linked with your hand movements. I find it very rewarding to weaken this mental link as much as possible. After a year, I can feel that I no longer rely on muscle memory, I rely on hearing the pitches.

2. Practising classical repertoire with a bow. As a jazzer I was avoiding this for many years. Benefit of this, tuning-wise, is in that you start to understand that the pitches are relative: the melodies ask for their own pitch, and even with moderate musical hearing, you learn quite fast to hear what sounds right. Experiencig this, I ceased to theorize about which kind of tempering is right. I understand that later on I might get back to it, but only after I'm sure I can actively use the difference. For now, I'm very satisfied with the fact that I am able to find the right pitch, and the method is to really rely on my ears.
Funny thing is that I needed to try Bach Cello suites to learn that, all the common etudes I played (hundreds of them?) didn't really prepare me to trust myself.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Here's a nice intro video on what we do using the different tuning systems when playing in an Orchestra.

I definitely hear these differences and agree that players make adjustments based on whether they are playing monophonic passages or harmonic ones. But the video makes it sound as though all string players are aware of the different tuning systems by name and when they are switching between them.

This has not been my experience. My first wife was a professional violinist and I attended dozens of masterclasses with her during our time together. Not once did I hear any tuning system mentioned by name, and it was rare to hear discussions of the sizes of intervals in theoretical terms, although there was some discussion of playing leading tones leaning slightly more to their resolution points. Mostly, when intonation was discussed, it was in more general terms of a particular passage simply not being played in tune or not, and the details were dealt with in terms of firming up those passages through ear training and technique. My experience with many bass masterclasses has been the same.

I don’t doubt that these systems exist, or even that players are adhering to some of the general principles of them subconsciously when they are playing. But I do doubt them as conscious entities, at least among the many string players I have associated with over the past 35 years.

But this is a fascinating conversation! Thanks to everyone for their perspectives.

 

[Wasnex]

I was consistently practising intonation for a year now. Given no opportunity to play with real people during lockdown, I thought this was the best thing to do with my time. I play big band and jazz, I play double bass for some 15 years. I get paid for my music but I'm no professional. What I was doing this last year:

1. Practising scales with a bow. With and without drone. All keys, all possible fingerings. Peak through Rabbath 2 and 3 to grasp the principle (pivoting is not obligatory). The benefit of many keys and fingerings, tuning-wise, is that you get a notion about how much your inner ear is linked with your hand movements. I find it very rewarding to weaken this mental link as much as possible. After a year, I can feel that I no longer rely on muscle memory, I rely on hearing the pitches.

2. Practising classical repertoire with a bow. As a jazzer I was avoiding this for many years. Benefit of this, tuning-wise, is in that you start to understand that the pitches are relative: the melodies ask for their own pitch, and even with moderate musical hearing, you learn quite fast to hear what sounds right. Experiencig this, I ceased to theorize about which kind of tempering is right. I understand that later on I might get back to it, but only after I'm sure I can actively use the difference. For now, I'm very satisfied with the fact that I am able to find the right pitch, and the method is to really rely on my ears.
Funny thing is that I needed to try Bach Cello suites to learn that, all the common etudes I played (hundreds of them?) didn't really prepare me to trust myself.

I'll address these ideas with the same numbers you used to express them.

1. This tends to work fine in situations where you can hear yourself clearly. However, I have never played acoustically in a large ensemble where this was possible. There are many situations where you can play in a classical style where you have to rely largely on the calibration of your muscle memory.

I alternated between big band and concert band for much of my career and used an amp for both ensembles. I could rely on my ear when I was playing pop and jazz, but when it came to play in a classical style I adjusted my volume more to blend with the ensemble, so I really could not hear myself clearly.

In big band I would frequently switch between my fretted 6-string bass guitar, a full scale 6-string electric upright (EUB), and an traditional acoustic upright. I had no problems with intonation because the bass role in this type of ensemble allowed me to turn up loud enough where I could use my ear.

A week or so before the music was handed out for concert band, I put the EUB in its case and pulled out Simandl so I could dial in my intonation on upright. There were some pieces where I really wanted to use the EUB, but doing so degraded my ability to play the upright in tune in this setting.

2. One possible problem is I believe the way you temper notes naturally, when you play without accompaniment, may be different than the way you would temper chord tones when playing harmonically in an ensemble...especially if pitch has varied from the tuning note, which IMHO is more likely than not.

 

[Wasnex]

I definitely hear these differences and agree that players make adjustments based on whether they are playing monophonic passages or harmonic ones. But the video makes it sound as though all string players are aware of the different tuning systems by name and when they are switching between them.

This has not been my experience. My first wife was a professional violinist and I attended dozens of masterclasses with her during our time together. Not once did I hear any tuning system mentioned by name, and it was rare to hear discussions of the sizes of intervals in theoretical terms, although there was some discussion of playing leading tones leaning slightly more to their resolution points. Mostly, when intonation was discussed, it was in more general terms of a particular passage simply not being played in tune or not, and the details were dealt with in terms of firming up those passages through ear training and technique. My experience with many bass masterclasses has been the same.

I don’t doubt that these systems exist, or even that players are adhering to some of the general principles of them subconsciously when they are playing. But I do doubt them as conscious entities, at least among the many string players I have associated with over the past 35 years.

But this is a fascinating conversation! Thanks to everyone for their perspectives.

In my experience, if intonation is discussed in the context of temperament, the discussion will typically be lead by the conductor. However I don't think even every conductor has a firm grasp on the subject.

I would say I had an awareness of the subject and developed some understanding from reading and following the couple of conductors that addressed this issue in terms of tempering rather than purely as a matter of intonation. I got an early start as the first conductor I worked with after turning pro had written his doctoral dissertation on pitch perception. So temperament was something he addressed frequently.

When addressing intonation the ensemble plays a chord and everyone is told to adjust (using their ears and judgment. When addressing temperament, each sections is told to which direction to push their pitch (sharp or flat), and how large of an adjustment to make. There is an expectation that players pencil intonation marks on their parts.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@Wasnex Yes, in in youth orchestra in my teens (I played French horn) there was talk of tuning, but never systems. I thought the difference between "in tune" and "out of tune" should be pretty obvious, but it varied depending on the skill of the other instruments/sections. Plus, when playing a wind instrument, you feel the vibrations of the intervallic beats of an out of tune note right there on your face, so it's harder to not fix it. With strings - as you know - the whole kinesthetic experience is very different!

 

[Wasnex]

@Wasnex Yes, in in youth orchestra in my teens (I played French horn) there was talk of tuning, but never systems. I thought the difference between "in tune" and "out of tune" should be pretty obvious, but it varied depending on the skill of the other instruments/sections. Plus, when playing a wind instrument, you feel the vibrations of the intervallic beats of an out of tune note right there on your face, so it's harder to not fix it. With strings - as you know - the whole kinesthetic experience is very different!

Upright bass tends to vibrate quite a bit with tuning errors as well. When there are multiple pitch centers between low frequency instruments, I believe the bass has a tendency to vibrate with the difference frequency. Makes it really hard to play in tune when you can't hear your bass and the dominant vibration you feel is not the pitch you are playing. Probably worst case is to be caught between the tubas and tympani.