Double Bass The different ways of approaching Improvisation..

[HenryD]

Learning how to improvise isn't something you can become good at by reading a book, or even reading this thread. Improvising entails a lot of different aspects of music, and theory. If you play chord tones the whole time you sound like too much of a classical player, if you play non-chord tones the whole time you sound inexperienced.
Truthfully, you have to discover what "works" and what doesn't by yourself. This can obviously be supplemented by transcribing solos and listening, but it all really comes down to you putting in the hours and figuring things out.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

No, but it is something you can become good at by working on some specific skills sets. I had been playing for a number of years before I started studying with someone who not only could define what those were (for me) but also put together a series of exercises to work on them. Articulating what those skill sets are isn't the same as working on them, but it's still a Good Thing.

 

[topo morto]

I had been playing for a number of years before I started studying with someone who not only could define what those were (for me) but also put together a series of exercises to work on them.

Anywhere on TB where you've gone into these in any detail?

 

[GrowlerBox]

Anywhere on TB where you've gone into these in any detail?

Check out the sticky at the very top of this forum -- fascinating read.

 

[suraci]

Soloing on bass, is harder than most because it is the lowest instrument range wise. We seldom hear melody sung or played in the lowest ranges.. an extra hurdle for bass.
Henry and Chris made very good points; but it is a mistake for an intermediate player to "get ahead of himself", get too intellectual, which is further from "the music".
Start with the simpler songs/ a blues, a very familiar melody. Melody played with a nice danceable feeling is the essence- I would mention Paul Chambers, but he is a little advanced.
Play the melody. Play variations on the STILL recognizable MELODY... don't be afraid to appear square, PLAY THAT MELODY.
Also go back to the 1930's 1940's. Where it is easier to hear the melody and the variations on it.
Listen to Sinatra and similar singers as they vary the melody a bit.
Louis Armstrong is a great source. Slam Stewart another.
It is not as hard NOT as intellectual as some make it out to be.
I know of one amazing example I would like to share. I backed up a singer who consistently could do this amazing musical feat. He would sing 4 or 5 choruses in a row of "All of Me", with each succeeding chorus being more interesting, more varied than the preceding one. It was amazing to experience. Chorus one, the unadulterated melody, CHorus 2 slight alteration, chorus 3 excitement emotion is building, 4 it is burning!
I would use rhythm and blues and 30' and 40', early 50's as my reference point.
Spend time cultivating being a better blues player and soloist.
I would lift my mind OUT of today's thinking as much as you can.
I would bring my head into 70 years ago.. there is a goldmine there for those with the sense to see it.
All of these words seem counterintuitive, and they are based on someone who is in early imitative stage of improv.
I would NOT use the metronome much at all. Play the blues to find your own center, not a machine.
I would record myself also.
Go back towards the inception of this music ( I am assuming jazz here, if not, whoops!! ) the excitement and exciting music of 1930 - 1950 will teach you all you need to know.

 

[topo morto]

Check out the sticky at the very top of this forum -- fascinating read.

Ah - yep. Thanks Growler and Ed.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Anywhere on TB where you've gone into these in any detail?

Also here.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I would NOT use the metronome much at all. Play the blues to find your own center, not a machine./QUOTE] Everything you said is ok, but I think this is misguided advice.

Listen to this lesson that a guy got from Pat Metheny (see at 9:20).
Pat Metheny Lesson_Part II - YouTube
(lesson continues into this vid)

Theres no better tool for attempting to get perfect time than with a metronome and good time, IMO, is really what that separates the men from the boys.

 

[suraci]

I was born with a basic good groove... my time is not like a metronome though. I have played with click tracks successfully, but there is somethiong artificial about playing TO an INHUMAN click. I once played with an excellent drummer who I was told practiced with a metronome 8 hours per day... he had played with Lennie Tristano. He had a unique feel that I liked, but....
People I respect have told me "no" on the metronome. One guy, Mike Longo has a series of DVD's about jazz rhythms that he gleaned from his close association with Dizzy G.
He says "no" on the metronome. So there are two schools of opposing thought on this.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm an advocate of using a metronome for improving one's time feel, you can hear what the work I have put in with one sounds like at either here or Invalid Link Removed.

 

[gai113]

the only way to learn improvisation is by doing it

Hal Galper's Master Class - Musical Vocabulary - YouTube

this cleared up a lot for me

 

[Ed Fuqua]

cire - since you are really just at the start of your journey with this music, you might want to cut back a little on the WHAT AM and WHAT AMN'T statements.

 

[damonsmith]

I'm an advocate of using a metronome for improving one's time feel, you can hear what the work I have put in with one sounds like at either here or Invalid Link Removed.

Agreed. The metronome is NOTHING to be afraid of. I have a really abstract free improv duo and we sometimes practice with a metronome.
A workable substitute is a ton of counting out loud while you play.
I have two young students and I mainly have them count out loud and both of their time is rock solid just from that.

 

[damonsmith]

Anyway, I think the title of this thread sums it up. You need different ways of approaching improvisation.
Different material, different time periods, different musicians, etc. require different approaches.
If you are really interested in improvisation, you need to make yourself aware of all of it's forms - there is now a 60 year international history of improvisation beyond playing tunes, there is no good argument for being willfully ingnorant of that history - though nobody says you need to "like" any of that music, being aware of the innovations is another thing altogether.

 

[jallenbass]

I'm an advocate of using a metronome for improving one's time feel, you can hear what the work I have put in with one sounds like at either here or Invalid Link Removed.

You're playing sounds great Ed. I'm sure you've talked about time and feel in detail somewhere here but if you haven't I would like to hear what you do and/or think.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

You're playing sounds great Ed. I'm sure you've talked about time and feel in detail somewhere here but if you haven't I would like to hear what you do and/or think.

I do OK, I feel that I'm pretty solidly competent. But that's about it. I am still working at getting deeper into it. As far as approach, I try to play what I hear, I try to not play anything if I don't hear it (most of the time unsuccessfully), I try to play with solid time, right in the middle of the beat when accompanying, I try to play with a relaxed feel, with a big sound (with no tension), I try to make some kind of sense when I solo and hope to communicate how I'm hearing the composition we're playing.

I'm working on getting a deeper harmonic vocabulary in my ears, getting better facility on the instrument, MORE solid time (that black hole time, that pulls everybody else into your time, that is irresistible to everyone cause it just feels SO good), a more solid left hand approach, more facility with the bow. Buncha stuff. Stuff that a LOT of cats up here have a much more nuanced control over than I do. Gotta love NYC!

There are a couple of old threads where I talk about time, time feel and an approach that has served me well to work on both. The "long story, short" is - time needs to be visceral, you have to feel it in your body; what it feels like when you're pushing the time or pulling the time. And unless you practice improvising against a constant - the metronome- you can't quantify that feeling for yourself.

 

[jallenbass]

Solidly competent seems like an understatement to me. It's a joy to listen to your music making.

The visceral feeling of time is elusive to me. Can you expand on that thought?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, you've got the nome going, you play the melody no worries nice and relaxed, the melody is just coming out and now you start to blow. What happens now is that there are things that you can hear clearly, there are things that you don't hear so clearly and there are things (parts of the harmony) that you don't hear anything at all. And you can stay pretty relaxed and in the zone for the parts you hear but, for me, what happens with the other parts is that I can start to tense up, hold my breath and then you can feel yourself pulling against the time or pushing it, against the nome. So what does your body feel like when that's going on? You can hear the nome forging ahead or falling behind, but what is happening with YOU? Are you not breathing are you holding tension are you collapsing your hands what is happening physically and physiologically?
Once you identify these physical reactions by working with the nome, you can stay alert for the same reactions when you're playing with other people.
Does that help?

 

[Stick_Player]

... by working with the nome, you can stay alert for the same reactions when you're playing with other people

This nome?

 

[jallenbass]

Yes. I always thought that the visceral feeling of time had something to do with with feeling the pulse like you do with your heartbeat but is tuned into the tempo of the tune. The physical sensations that you speak of makes sense to me and I'm going to work on finding the feeling that coincides with that "blackhole" feel that you referred to. Thanks.