Double Bass The different ways of approaching Improvisation..

[Ed Fuqua]

This nome?

Yes. That nome. Glad to know that spelling is kind of optional with you.

 

[suraci]

I do OK, I feel that I'm pretty solidly competent. But that's about it. I am still working at getting deeper into it. As far as approach, I try to play what I hear, I try to not play anything if I don't hear it (most of the time unsuccessfully), I try to play with solid time, right in the middle of the beat when accompanying, I try to play with a relaxed feel, with a big sound (with no tension), I try to make some kind of sense when I solo and hope to communicate how I'm hearing the composition we're playing.

I'm working on getting a deeper harmonic vocabulary in my ears, getting better facility on the instrument, MORE solid time (that black hole time, that pulls everybody else into your time, that is irresistible to everyone cause it just feels SO good), a more solid left hand approach, more facility with the bow. Buncha stuff. Stuff that a LOT of cats up here have a much more nuanced control over than I do. Gotta love NYC!

There are a couple of old threads where I talk about time, time feel and an approach that has served me well to work on both. The "long story, short" is - time needs to be visceral, you have to feel it in your body; what it feels like when you're pushing the time or pulling the time. And unless you practice improvising against a constant - the metronome- you can't quantify that feeling for yourself.

Are you a Republican? Just teasing- honestly!
you sound like you have good foundational ideas about music and bass playing +1
But my teacher says no on metronome as does another older drummer whose playing got him to play with Niels and Oscar, Dexter , Webster, Doug McClure etc.
I am not entirely sure on the topic.
Anyway, nice to hear your ideas on bass, I am a former NYC bass player, so I can relate.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Mike has some nice ideas about improvisational approach, but the only person I know personally who studies with him still rushes and can't hear himself rushing until you play the recording back for him.
But do what you want, no skin off my nose.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Well, you've got the nome going, you play the melody no worries nice and relaxed, the melody is just coming out and now you start to blow. What happens now is that there are things that you can hear clearly, there are things that you don't hear so clearly and there are things (parts of the harmony) that you don't hear anything at all. And you can stay pretty relaxed and in the zone for the parts you hear but, for me, what happens with the other parts is that I can start to tense up, hold my breath and then you can feel yourself pulling against the time or pushing it, against the nome. So what does your body feel like when that's going on? You can hear the nome forging ahead or falling behind, but what is happening with YOU? Are you not breathing are you holding tension are you collapsing your hands what is happening physically and physiologically?
Once you identify these physical reactions by working with the nome, you can stay alert for the same reactions when you're playing with other people.

This is a great description of how the process works for me. I also use the portable recorder to check for time inconsistencies, and always find the same thing about the parts of the tune I *really* know versus the ones I "kinda" know.

 

[Stick_Player]

Yes. That nome. Glad to know that spelling is kind of optional with you.

Oh, don't be a curmudgeon!

Metronome shortened should be: 'nome. If indeed that's what you are referring to.

 

[suraci]

Mike has some nice ideas about improvisational approach, but the only person I know personally who studies with him still rushes and can't hear himself rushing until you play the recording back for him.
But do what you want, no skin off my nose.

Fine, he rushes. We are all at differing states of evolution.
All Mike has told me is it will improve a persons swing feel.
I will pass you opinion on to him. I am curious his response, but to correlate a students ability with a teachers method is not entirely fair; but I do see your point. I will bring it up.

Mike speaks of swing being a human time feeling not a machine.
Do people with a great feel have metronomic time ?

Do you know Roger Mancuso... former drummer for Lennie Tristano? I played with him a bit, and his 8 hours with the metronome certainly ( along with his TALENT! ) gave him steady time. And he had this unique attribute. He was a low low volume player. He could swing at whisper volume- don't try that at home. So your point about metronome is not on deaf ears. But one thing that is really bothering me... ARE you a Republican? ha haha

 

[damonsmith]

Keeping good, crisp time is better than any unsteady "feel" - unless you are trying to make things unstable.
I have had to play jazz material with drummers with great time who don't swing at all and it is far prefereable to some jerk losing control and rushing.

I am obviously into free playing, I am also into Mingus and Danny Richmond's accelarondos, (esp. on "Now's the Time!), However, no time concept that can't handle the raw pulse of the metronome is a good one, especially in terms of your fundamentals.

I might agree with not using one for certain things, but only after spending considerable time with one.
It seems like one of the few things Ed and I see eye to eye is time and walking.

 

[suraci]

Well explain how I was able to record to click tracks.. and I never worked with a metronome? I played a few gigs with a drummer who lived by the metronome and I seemed to fit in with him. Of course I never asked Roger Mancuso's opinion about my "metronomicness", but we made music for sure... of course the guitar player was one of the swingest cats I have ever played with, and that helped too.

I think life is multi layered, there is, like this threads title suggests, more than one way to skin a cat. More than one way to grow, to groove, to improve.
And there are large differences in natural talent for groove as well. How many Ray Brown's are there?
The single most consistent compliment I used to receive ( not so much lately hmmm ) is about my time. I KNOW my time is not like a metronome... but whatever it is, it so to speak works. I currently have been reduced to playing with a drum machine on some lowly gigs. I play with that machine just fine.
There are many aspects to this, not just a metronome argument

There is compatibiity between players to be considered.
There is a new problem too, too few gigs, which means that cats do not play with one another sufficiently to LEARN how to play with cats they seldom get to play with.
If I play with "you" a three hour gig once every 2 months. that is a lousy way to determine our compatibility.
I used to think so and so, was not swinging, until years later, I got to play with him for 3 nights in a row, THAT changed everything... we swung like never before.
Swinging whether reggae or jazz, is a HUMAN THING a HUMAN interaction.
Don't forget that.
I am curious if anyone has gone to the trouble of testing their favorite groove recordings with a metronome to see of their music IS in fact metronome friendly ha ha ha have a nice day.

 

[Michael Case]

Well Ed always says the methods he learned from work for him. Most people will learn differently and will swear by that method. The proof is in the music, and I think Ed's point is well made when you hear his playing.

 

[suraci]

Well Ed always says the methods he learned from work for him. Most people will learn differently and will swear by that method. The proof is in the music, and I think Ed's point is well made when you hear his playing.

You make a good ... case

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Well explain how I was able to record to click tracks.. and I never worked with a metronome?

You're just so talented... Playing with click tracks (metronome) is difficult. In my studio days, 90% of the sessions were with click, easier to do by yourself at home, tougher with other players pushing and pulling, I NEED MORE CLICK IN MY CANS... Working with a metronome is a good thing, but you still have to adapt to the players you perform with, especially the percussionists. It is increasingly difficult with multi percussionists when they have differing senses of time. Having a rigid sense of time, even if you're metronome correct, doesn't necessarily make for the best music making with others, IMO. Often you have to go with the flow.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

...and don't misunderstand Ed's point (although it must take work to do that, because the dude's a good writer, especially on topics like this.) I never heard him even get close to saying "thou shalt play metronomically". What I did interpret him as saying is the 'nome is a useful tool for developing time sense.

In comparison to the concept of developing good time, playing swinging jazz (i.e., with what folks would mostly call "good time") with other musicians is a different topic. The former is about learning. The latter is about performing.

 

[suraci]

Does anyone subscribe to playing along with your favorite recordings?
There is a killer funky bass player on you tube who plays along with over one hundred original hit recordings ( not simultaneously though
I can hear the original track in the background
He nails them pretty impressively

 

[suraci]

When I think of grooves , my mind goes to very diverse places:

Bill Evans with Scott La Faro is one place
Oscar and Ray
Eddie Palmeri on a recording called "Puerto Rico". I defy a person who is essentially human to sit still while experiencing 6 and a half min of this recording around 1973
James Brown Cold Sweat
Early Thad and Mel
Basie with Sinatra and Quincy
Jimmy Smith
Jaco w Herbie
Tommy Sims
Gordon Edwards
Marcus
Stanley w Chick and White
Jamerson
Duck Dunn
Weeks
Ricky Fataar w Raitt
Benson's "Dinorah" I know Gadd did some of his stuff
Earth Wind & F
Stevie Ray V
Hendrix
Steely Dan Aja album Gadd Purdie Rainey
Miles w Ron Carter and company
Miles w Paul Chambers

How many of these are metronomic?
Maybe BEING metronomic is not the point of using a metronome??

 

[Michael Case]

No BEING metronomic is NOT the point of the metronome. The point of the metronome (in my limited experience) is to help a person get a sense of time. The nome really helped me get a sense of the space in between notes, spacing my quarter, eighth, and sixteenth notes better. It also helped me to open up and listen better. One of my bass teachers once said "think of the metronome as a drummer with good time who doesn't listen to you." He was saying learn how to listen and respond to who, or what you're playing with. I think playing along to recordings is helpful for learning how to emulate feel, but eventually you need to do the work to get YOUR feel. For me, the nome is useful.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

In essence: practice with the nome at home to build your skills and strengths. When you get on stage, do whatever the hell you want and follow the music. I don't see why that's so hard for people to understand. Some people get bent out of shape if the group rushes or drags slightly - but as a unit. I don't get it.

 

[suraci]

You're just so talented... Playing with click tracks (metronome) is difficult. In my studio days, 90% of the sessions were with click, easier to do by yourself at home, tougher with other players pushing and pulling, I NEED MORE CLICK IN MY CANS... Working with a metronome is a good thing, but you still have to adapt to the players you perform with, especially the percussionists. It is increasingly difficult with multi percussionists when they have differing senses of time. Having a rigid sense of time, even if you're metronome correct, doesn't necessarily make for the best music making with others, IMO. Often you have to go with the flow.

Yeah yeah yeah ( if I "say" yeah one more time! but I won't
) I know, sooo talented with that click.
Seriously, the DRUMMER was sooo good with the click, it made it easy when Alan Schwartzberg was at the drum set.
Other drummers were not as good with the click.

Don't get me started about so so time among musicians, esp guys who 1. pick up a perc instrument while they are not blowing their horns 2. When they solo, their time is FAR from a pocket, soo busy playing their licks, forgetting the major influence their lines have on the overall groove. Don't get me started. All I can say is this... rhythmic groove, is the single most lacking quality of musicians in GENERAL.

 

[suraci]

No BEING metronomic is NOT the point of the metronome. The point of the metronome (in my limited experience) is to help a person get a sense of time. The nome really helped me get a sense of the space in between notes, spacing my quarter, eighth, and sixteenth notes better. It also helped me to open up and listen better. One of my bass teachers once said "think of the metronome as a drummer with good time who doesn't listen to you." He was saying learn how to listen and respond to who, or what you're playing with. I think playing along to recordings is helpful for learning how to emulate feel, but eventually you need to do the work to get YOUR feel. For me, the nome is useful.

You have to develop feel, musical ideas, and steady time
how does playing to a recording show up as inferior to metronome?
Humans are not metronomic but the best are closer to a metronome I suppose. So go to the source, Ray Brown, Marcus, Hadrien whomever

 

[longfinger]

The point is not about playing "metronomic"*, but in cultivating skills of time practice with "another", the other being the metronome. Use the metronome in all sorts of different ways to test your time. It does not give you the time, but stays steady in an electronically perfect way. When we hear the click in a different time position than we started playing some seconds / minutes ago, we know it is us that moved and not the metronome. To notice that, we have the hear the shift and understand the difference. If we cannot hear/do that with the steady click, it will be very hard to hear that with other people playing. And those people will have their own issues to deal with too. "Was it him or me who flipped/sped up/ dropped beat?"

The metronome won't get angry at you for flipping the beat, losing an 8th note triplet, losing a quarter note, rushing, dragging etc. It just clicks on. Develop the skills with the machine and then play with people. Live people, however, can get annoyed by me or you in the band doing the above, and we could suffer for it.

OTOH, generally, the idea of electronically perfect tempo (mechanical not being precise enough), is only from the late 1970's and on, once people starting multi-tracking with click tracks as the norm. Before that, tempos moved around. Our ideas and acceptance of tempo steadiness has changed, as has our ideas and expectations of volume and especially bass volume, in live shows and recordings have changed.

(* unlike some poofy-haired, spandex clad "shredders" of the late 1980's early 1990's who IMHO actually played 'metronomic'. )


There is also great value in practicing rubato playing, and practicing note envelope-based time playing.

 

[suraci]

The point is not about playing "metronomic"*, but in cultivating skills of time practice with "another", the other being the metronome. Use the metronome in all sorts of different ways to test your time. It does not give you the time, but stays steady in an electronically perfect way. When we hear the click in a different time position than we started playing some seconds / minutes ago, we know it is us that moved and not the metronome. To notice that, we have the hear the shift and understand the difference. If we cannot hear/do that with the steady click, it will be very hard to hear that with other people playing. And those people will have their own issues to deal with too. "Was it him or me who flipped/sped up/ dropped beat?"

The metronome won't get angry at you for flipping the beat, losing an 8th note triplet, losing a quarter note, rushing, dragging etc. It just clicks on. Develop the skills with the machine and then play with people. Live people, however, can get annoyed by me or you in the band doing the above, and we could suffer for it.

OTOH, generally, the idea of electronically perfect temp (mechanical not being precise enough), is only from the late 1970's and on, once people starting multi-tracking with click tracks as the norm. Before that, tempos moved around. Our ideas and acceptance of tempo steadiness has changed, as has our idea and acceptance of volume and especially bass volume, in live shows and recordings have changed.

(* unlike some poofy-haired, spandex clad "shredders" of the late 1980's early 1990's who IMHO actually played 'metronomic'. )


There is also great value in practicing rubato playing, and practicing note envelope-based time playing.

I guess if you are dropping beats the way you mention, then a metronome sounds useful but so is a recorder!!!

Tempo "moved around" is that a bad thing, it moving around? So by extrapolation, James Brown's groove thing "moved around" ha ha ha he sure did. Is James Brown groove moving around to be avoided.../ slight irony there, bordering on facetiousness. Would Clyde Bootsie and company been even funkier had they had the euro gnome in the bus? Just wonderin
Your last sentence, could you go into it.... envelope based time playing?????