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The Evolution of Bass Guitar Technology and Beyond...

I'm not disputing that these clips have nice bass sounds, but with modern recording equipment they would sound even better;)

then give us an example, because i think that you're nuts. just try and cop any one of those bass tones. IMO, that's as good as it gets.
 
yes, i do. i have both modern digital gear and old school analog gear, and the vintage stuff smokes it.

vintage:

Amek:
Amek-M3000-1.jpg


3M
3M-M79s.jpg


UA
UA175-1.jpg



Urie
two1176LN.jpg



Neve:
Neve1060-1.jpg


Neumann:
U87Ai-1-1000.jpg



modern:
Apogee:
apogee_Rosetta-2.jpg


Motu:
MOTU-2.jpg


Focusrite:
isa430mkii-800.jpg


Avalon:
Avalon-xti2000-1000.jpg
 
I like this thread. It fascinates me, like talking to llamas. Just read the 543 posts since last night, my brain is liquefying. I had another observation occur to me, but now that I go to type it... I can't fathom why I should bother. The llamas will still just stare at you, wondering if you're going to try to eat them, or feed them.
 
Some things don't "evolve". And some even barely change. Since music is an emotional endeavor at its core, frankly the tools matter little. While new tech may give new capabilities, the emotions afforded don't really change. So invariably it comes back to the writer and the player.

I owned a Lightwave (Zon) for 10 years. Awesome bass. But still largely a footnote.

Also, just as you can't compare baseball players/teams from the 60's with today, you can't really compare recordings from the 60's with today. Context matters, and we're back to the emotion that was captured (or not) in the recordings. Mathematically "better" doesn't necessarily mean emotionally better.
 
A few points:

Berger still took a dive. They cannot deliver, did not evolve, and made guys run to wood. NEXT! (I pesonally think it failed because of an underlying reason that makes this Forum exist and keeps guys talking about their gear....INDIVIDUALITY! Sue me if I am wrong)

I won't sue you, but I'll correct you.
For the record, Steinberger as a company went under thanks to Gibson, who brutally mismanaged them much as they did Tobias, Oberheim, Trace Elliot, and several other formerly great companies.
The quality of product and ability to evolve had literally nothing to do with it. It was bad management, period.
Ned Steinberger has gone on to design many successful instruments (NS upright bass and electric violin family) and products (capos, drum keys, etc.) that represent the likely evolution of Steinberger Sound had it not been sold to Gibson.

Notice how most instruments which have fully evolved have limited individuality?

No instrument has "fully evolved". Evolution is not a finite process with a beginning and an end.

a Few a very very few, think that new materials is the new frontier, but they have to deliver as well as be deliverable.

Is there enough attack and sustain in the present instuments that require movement away from magnetic forces working against?

Are the present day materials durable and of enough strength to acheive the apex of sustain that every bassist demands?

This is downright contradictory.
Don't blame instrument design for having "limited individuality", and then suggest that every bassist demands the same qualities from their instrument.
They don't.

It's also misguided to believe that magnetic pull from pickups is some kind of evil force that is somehow keeping basses from achieving their full potential. Piezo pickups have no such effect, and the drag from traditional magnetics is really negligible in terms of the overall picture of sustain and quality of tone.

All of the talk back and forth about gear could be subject to audio-spectral analysis and breakdowns, and resolved.

Again, don't depend too much on the technology for answers. You can look at 10 different waterfall plots of band-specific decay over time, and still have no idea which sound good or bad.

What is missing from the present day instrument that someone could provide, short of Price being $0?

Lighter weight, more neck stability and stiffness, better balance, wider variety of tones...should we go on?

I think that it's inevitable that a company will develop a composite in the future that will be used in neck and body construction at a reasonable cost for mass-production. It'll be borrowed technology from some other application, like aerospace, medical or automotive technology.

Wood has been replaced with synthetic materials in many, many other areas of manufacturing. It'll happen here, too. Then, wood basses will be seen as the "boutique" or retro ones.

Seriously, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. But it will be enabled by technology meeting a price point of manufacturing, not driven (or encumbered) by the tastes and whims of musicians.

Again, I must respectfully disagree.
Composites have many liabilities from a manufacturing standpoint, chief among which is toxicity to the builder.
Cost and availability of practical tooling are next.

The truth is, if wood didn't exist and someone invented it, it would be seen as the miracle material of all the ages.
It is reasonably lightweight, very strong, essentially non-toxic, attractive, grows with light and water, absorbs CO2 from the air, and looks pretty in the Fall.

Wood also has better resistance to cycle fatigue (meaning the eventual loss of strength through repeated flexing within its structural limits) than any composite we've come up with yet.
Better still, there are many, many different types with different properties that already exist.
I honestly think the only reason wood will ever be replaced as the primary material for instruments is if/when it becomes unavailable, and synthetics will be used not by choice but by necessity. This is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.

Although one site Mod has explained that there was a problem with the expressive abilities of the Lightwave Optical system, there have been no entries of websites, articles, or reviews of such; not that they do not exist.

One commentor explained that the Lightwave system was too complicated.

The same complaint came from mechanics facing the onslought of computer controlled electronic fuel injection. So, complexity may not kill the baby, but the assessment of the level of advantage gained by the technology may keep the technology from being mass produced.

The Lightwave was quite complicated. Specifically, it required significant routing and invasive installation, and the sound it delivered was ultimately not good enough for most people to justify the work of installation.

Yes, I've played several. They were OK.
I've heard many, many basses powered by magnetics and/or piezos that sounded as good or better, without the big rechargeable battery or giant circuit board.

Actually, the Lightwave is a clear example of my original point: just because it's a new technology does not mean it's really a big step forward - a whole lot of R&D money went into developing a product that, at best, was maybe possibly slightly nicer sounding to a minority of people.

...there is no rush to make things stronger, harder, more resilient, or even frictionless.

Frictionless?

Cheers,
Martin
 
There are no government regulations and subsidies forcing the evolution of Bass Guitar Technology, so there is no rush to make things stronger, harder, more resilient, or even frictionless.

And we should all thank God, Buddha, Mohammed, Vishnu, the great hairy thunderer or (insert the deity of your choice) that that's not the case.

About the only thing the gubment does well is the military, whose job is to kill people and break things...but that runs the risk of mod intervention or being moved to P&R.

You really want the Feds designing the next big thing in basses? Don't they meddle enough in industries about which they know nothing? With results that are 180-deg out of phase from the original intent?

Besides, Martin Keith pretty well nailed it in post #116.
 
Martin... I fully understand where you're coming from, but composites HAVE already superceded wood in soooo many other areas of manufactured goods, I still see this as inevitable. Fishing rods, tennis rackets, golf clubs, etc, etc....

Tooling IS expensive, yes, but if you were FMIC and could crank out molded necks that would be cheap to produce and impervious to the normal humidity and temperature changes, you'd tool up and put them on your Squier line.

They make automotive engine blocks out of composites now. They're waaay more durable than any wood. It's just not "there" for musical instruments yet.

But it will be. Betcha a beer!!!
 
ok, so since this thread is no longer ass and the ass people went away, i want to talk about hollowbodies. i think they're just as innovative as anything out there. ok, so the hollowbody electric bass came a year after the fender, but it's an important innovation...thanks to the hollowbody, sustain is greatly reduced, it's possible to get feedback at lower volumes, and vicious midbass response is there in spades. ok, so it took us years of trying to get rid of all that to appreciate it, but now that we do, it's a great crayon in the toolbox.
 
Martin,
Thanks.
Your input on the experience with the Lightwave is much appreciated.

As for the materials point you made, it supports my curiosity to the materials work at BassLab.

I appreciate you taking the time.

P.S. Do you think that the Lightwave in the BassLab material might be a desirable product, even for the most adventurous?



JimmyM,
You and that James Brown Lamp photo are just killing me.
 
Martin... I fully understand where you're coming from, but composites HAVE already superceded wood in soooo many other areas of manufactured goods, I still see this as inevitable. Fishing rods, tennis rackets, golf clubs, etc, etc....

Tooling IS expensive, yes, but if you were FMIC and could crank out molded necks that would be cheap to produce and impervious to the normal humidity and temperature changes, you'd tool up and put them on your Squier line.

They make automotive engine blocks out of composites now. They're waaay more durable than any wood. It's just not "there" for musical instruments yet.

But it will be. Betcha a beer!!!

Possibly, but we'll see.

For starters, engine blocks require very, very different properties than musical instruments - I think you'll grant me that!

Beyond that, it's not just possible that FMIC or Gibson or Ibanez may try to mold instrument parts...all of them have or already are:
-FMIC now owns Ovation, an early composite adopter
-Gibson bought Steinberger, and recently revived them using molded Moses necks
-Ibanez had their Ergodyne instruments with "Luthite" bodies, which was some sort of molded part

Of the above, the Ovations were arguably the most successful, and even those are generally looked at askance by many, unless they're touring very aggressively.

However, the industry giants do not represent the totality of the business. Furthermore, I would say that most lasting innovation in the guitar building arena has been driven by small builders who are willing and able to do the research and invest the personal R&D to develop something new. Larger companies may later copy these ideas, but in general, it's the little guys who will lead the way. Active EQs, composite structural reinforcements, fully composite guitars, and lots of other lasting changes came from the small companies first, since the big guys are usually unwilling to risk their bottom line on potential failures.

The little guys will, IMO, always be using wood, until there isn't any left. Why? Well, it's cheaper, nicer to work, better looking, and until now, sounds better with more control over the result.

Cheers,
Martin
 
As for the materials point you made, it supports my curiosity to the materials work at BassLab.

I appreciate you taking the time.

P.S. Do you think that the Lightwave in the BassLab material might be a desirable product, even for the most adventurous?

Sure, very desirable, with only two conditions:

-1: You like the sound
-2: You have the money

If both of those things are true, then go for it.

Cheers,
Martin
 
Lamp?

It's high tech, futuristical headgear made from advanced composites.

Hollowbody basses..nah, just a passing fad. Certainly not The Future (TM).

Wait a sec, aren't Basslabs hollow? That's a Jim Kirk quality Android Brain Melter Logic Puzzle (TM) right there!

Mr Keith, thanks for chiming in. Just checked out your web site. Absolutely gorgeous. I like your interpretation of the singlecut design! I'd actually gotten tired of seeing them, as they all tend to look the same after awhile. Yours stand out without looking far-out, tough to do. I couldn't afford a stick of gum these days, so sadly I can't back it up with a purchase, but you have some super keen looking instruments.



Edit: Too slow, too long looking at basses after I started replying.
 
A few points:



I won't sue you, but I'll correct you.
For the record, Steinberger as a company went under thanks to Gibson, who brutally mismanaged them much as they did Tobias, Oberheim, Trace Elliot, and several other formerly great companies.
The quality of product and ability to evolve had literally nothing to do with it. It was bad management, period.
Ned Steinberger has gone on to design many successful instruments (NS upright bass and electric violin family) and products (capos, drum keys, etc.) that represent the likely evolution of Steinberger Sound had it not been sold to Gibson.



No instrument has "fully evolved". Evolution is not a finite process with a beginning and an end.



This is downright contradictory.
Don't blame instrument design for having "limited individuality", and then suggest that every bassist demands the same qualities from their instrument.
They don't.

It's also misguided to believe that magnetic pull from pickups is some kind of evil force that is somehow keeping basses from achieving their full potential. Piezo pickups have no such effect, and the drag from traditional magnetics is really negligible in terms of the overall picture of sustain and quality of tone.



Again, don't depend too much on the technology for answers. You can look at 10 different waterfall plots of band-specific decay over time, and still have no idea which sound good or bad.



Lighter weight, more neck stability and stiffness, better balance, wider variety of tones...should we go on?



Again, I must respectfully disagree.
Composites have many liabilities from a manufacturing standpoint, chief among which is toxicity to the builder.
Cost and availability of practical tooling are next.

The truth is, if wood didn't exist and someone invented it, it would be seen as the miracle material of all the ages.
It is reasonably lightweight, very strong, essentially non-toxic, attractive, grows with light and water, absorbs CO2 from the air, and looks pretty in the Fall.

Wood also has better resistance to cycle fatigue (meaning the eventual loss of strength through repeated flexing within its structural limits) than any composite we've come up with yet.
Better still, there are many, many different types with different properties that already exist.
I honestly think the only reason wood will ever be replaced as the primary material for instruments is if/when it becomes unavailable, and synthetics will be used not by choice but by necessity. This is unlikely to happen in our lifetime.



The Lightwave was quite complicated. Specifically, it required significant routing and invasive installation, and the sound it delivered was ultimately not good enough for most people to justify the work of installation.

Yes, I've played several. They were OK.
I've heard many, many basses powered by magnetics and/or piezos that sounded as good or better, without the big rechargeable battery or giant circuit board.

Actually, the Lightwave is a clear example of my original point: just because it's a new technology does not mean it's really a big step forward - a whole lot of R&D money went into developing a product that, at best, was maybe possibly slightly nicer sounding to a minority of people.



Frictionless?

Cheers,
Martin

+1

In the long run the marketplace will decide which innovations fly and which sink into obscurity.
 
Wood is cheaper NOW. Again, when the economies of scale and mass production composites make sense...

Composites don't require any "working" just pop them out of the mold!!! Oversimplified, of course but I guarantee there won't be any hand "shaping" steps going on to a molded neck.

I'm sure they'll sound fine, especially to those who think the material has no effect on the sound, LOL!

More control over the result?... absolutely not. Wood is tempermental and as inconsistent as all heck. Composites are much, much more predictable and stable. Lifetime guarantee against warping, anyone?

As I said, I appreciate and respect your perspective as a small boutique guitar builder. But we've all seen this happen in the big world OUTSIDE... composite tennis rackets, composite race cars, composite house construction materials... it WILL happen for mass produced musical instruments, it just hasn't yet.

You're gonna owe me a beer... some day, LOL!!!
 
Martin,

I was inspired to begin this thread not only because of all of the things that are on my present stock instruments which were not on my previous instrument of personal value, but because of the leadership in development of bass stuff by the late John Entwistle.

His Buzzard bass was an interesting looking thing, and he had moved to that from things like his Boris the Spider Alembic.

John had significant impact on me, even when I tried to get into Bi-Amping (that has nothing to do with you Mongo) in the early 80's.

Focusing on the instrument itself is the point here because of the Buzzard which was all carbon fiber and what I read, had a high failure rate in the construction process.

He was a leader in my book, so I was looking to see what might be coming beyond the Buzzard.

While JimmyM made his funny about hollow bodies, the BassLab product is hollow, completely, and uses something different from 100% carbon fiber, but does seem to have a carbon fiber cloth skeleton, from what I have been able to read about.

Price is a serious draw back to commonality. Toxicity of materials is a serious drawback against production, and thus I understand your points.

History confirms your observations, as really with all advanced Tech. Big business is not into R&D. They are "Me Too" marketers who make money despite themselves. THey are better off doing intraprenurial acquisition, they fail and destroy Tech with their Micro Managment.