I haven't gotten them yet but they were atleast made fairly quickly and they could wind strings long enough and thick enough for one of my WBO bass builds this year. So far a better experience then Kallium.
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The Fifths Tuning Club
- Thread starter ~M.o.M~
- Start date
Well I did it! I've been waiting for a gap when our band didn't have any gigs, but in the end I switched to fifths this morning and took the bass along to an open bluegrass session.
Currently it has an old-stock Innovation Jazz Honey "B" on the bottom, tuned up to a C.
The next two strings are Innovation Rockabillies, the A dropped to G and the D as nature intended.
The top string is less good - a G tuned up to A. The tension is too high, but I've ordered an Evra Pirazzi high C as recommended by @dfp It will be a bit mismatched for now, but when funds permit I'll change the middle two strings to match.
First reactions were it was a lot easier to play than I expected. Most of the patterns from EADG don't work - for root-5, root-3-5 etc. - but there are new patterns that are just as good. The nut slot is a bit tight so it's going to a local luthier to get that addressed and adjust the action... so all good so far!
Currently it has an old-stock Innovation Jazz Honey "B" on the bottom, tuned up to a C.
The next two strings are Innovation Rockabillies, the A dropped to G and the D as nature intended.
The top string is less good - a G tuned up to A. The tension is too high, but I've ordered an Evra Pirazzi high C as recommended by @dfp It will be a bit mismatched for now, but when funds permit I'll change the middle two strings to match.
First reactions were it was a lot easier to play than I expected. Most of the patterns from EADG don't work - for root-5, root-3-5 etc. - but there are new patterns that are just as good. The nut slot is a bit tight so it's going to a local luthier to get that addressed and adjust the action... so all good so far!
Seriously? Just saw this, don't know who else may have answered but here's my take;
- More Range (I tune A E B F# C# G# and basically have the range of a grand piano; or at least 5+ octaves)
- Pattern breaking: I can play everything I hear in 4ths but fifths makes me play and think different so I can sound like "me" not every other bass player
- Compositional Ideas: At this point my instinct is to approach most chords 1 6 5 not 1 3 5 or play an inversion which helps me create distinct bass lines
- Fifths are SUPER easy
- I can handle and double just about any guitar part so my need/use for most guitar players is minimized ;-)
- Arpeggios are SUPER EASY to play in and OUT. The 9th, 11th and 13th are easy to get to for any fast run or compositional idea...
So...this is MY take, I'm sure others may feel different so please take in as "IMO"...
I find I use my low A (A0) for impact, octaves and drones BECAUSE its so low. I LOVED how it sounded by myself and with my set up but when I was in a big room, I got mud. I LOVE the impact of subs, but the don't always cut in the mix...don't hesitate to "juxtapose" a super low note with a higher one to give it the impact you want! Just my two cents...
Yeah I'm using a .165 diadario still a little loose for my taste.
Yeah that's something I've found great about fifths, the octave and the third are in really convenient spots.
I still find the octave shape awkward, reaching forward (as in all fourths) feels more natural to the hand than reaching behind. But when the scale is short enough, you can get the octave on the next string 5 frets over, and that one is very convenient!
I still can't get over how brain-dead easy spread triads are. Low effort comping with built-in stepwise motion, it's probably my favorite part about the tuning.
I placed the order for the high C, got a call today from the supplier - they've worked on my bass in the past. He saw the order going past, wondered what I was up to and thought he'd give me a call to discuss and see if he could give any advice. We ended up changing the order to an Evra Pirazzi Solo high A instead. Great customer service!
Thank you!
Oh yes, I know that one. The ease of voicings like this are commonly cited as a reason that Sticks are traditionally tuned in fifths on the bass side.
For the upright guys who are skeptics, play whole notes on your open EADG. Next, tune your bass in 5ths CGDA and listen again to the open strings. (Open your extension to the low C.) Just listen and be honest with yourself. Don’t like it? Go back to 4ths. Don’t want to relearn all your etudes, excerpts, and solos-got it. No harm, no foul. In the Bass section, you will look like odd-man out. Your section leader may not approve. But in a chamber ensemble where you are the only Bass, I find it to be a nice blend; especially when you double the Cello parts. I, tongue in cheek, coined the term Contracello.
I am among the DB guys who reflected about the possibility using of 5th-tuning, for the advantages it brings like expanded range, access to 6th and 10th double stops, etc., but did not make the move.
The thing that really bugs me with 5th-tuning is the impossibility of playing 3rds (minor or major) in Simandl technique without shifting or pivoting (except of course if an open string is available). Sevenths are even worse. With Simandl technique in 4th-tuning, any interval between unison and perfect 11th is possible without shifting (of course this is restricted by the number of strings available above or below the one you are starting from...).
Thirds are so important in the music I am playing (jazz), which involve a lot of arpeggios, that I cannot imagine having to shift every time I need to play a 3rd. Similarly, 5ths are quite important too, and having to cross strings on the same finger to play is quite annoying. In particular, all closed-voice triads in 1st and 2nd inversion can be played without shifting; for root-position triads, a half-step pivot is necessary. With 5th-tuning, it seems to me that no closed triad can be played without shifting (though open triads are accessible; for playing them as chords, this is cool, but playing arpeggios like that in a bass lines would results in highly disjoint lines). In a walking bassline, 3rds are the most frequently played intervals (except of course for steps and half-steps).
I suspect you have answers to the points I mentioned, and would be happy to learn how you deal with 3rds, 7ths, and arpeggios in general on the DB tuned in 5ths..
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Frankly, I appreciate the thought you put into your assessments.
Re: 3rds. The use of the word “impossibility” with respect to 3rds, is, IMHO, too strong. Consider a simple C major arpeggio, low to high. With a bass in 4ths, you might use finger #2 at C (string III), #1 E @ II, pivot up to #4 G @ II, #4 C @ I. With a bass tuned in 5ths, I try to set up the tonic with my 4th finger. The pattern would be: #4 C @ III, pivot back #1 E @ II, pivot up #4 G @ II,(same as 4th tuning) #1 C @ I. From a logical perspective, there is a greater margin for error using 2 pivots instead of 1. However, daily warm-ups with thirds are a must. Minor 3rds are a significant challenge, depending on the layout. Consider C minor. I start with 1st finger C III, pivot up to #4 Eb @ III (similar to 4th tuning), pivot back #4 G @ II, #1 C @I(as before). My approach to the technical aspects of playing bass is about learning the patterns, not what is easier. You are going to shift and pivot to play the Bass regardless of tuning. But to focus on the disadvantages of playing in 5ths is more about preference and attitude than “different strokes.”
Re: 7ths are a colossal PITA. It requires a whole shift back for the Dominant 7th. Vomit exercises with 5th tuning are a must.
Re: Simandl. (This is borderline heresy.) Why would you want to apply methods designed for 4th tuning to performance on a Bass tuned in 5ths? Consider the terminology of “first position.” Bass players must cover significant real estate. If you consider 1st position on a Cello, it would be “1st neighborhood” on a Bass. Simandl is traditional and stands the test of time. But in 5ths, I consider Joel Quarrington’s publications. Also, Dennis Masuzzo has a wonderful publication with a few excerpts with fingerings for bass tuned in fifths. If you are looking to get used to the rumble of the low C to Eb (IV), Isaia Billè published a method for 5-string Bass in 4ths (low B/C) c. 1922. Pick and choose exercises at your discretion as it is in IMSLP.
Re: Jazz. I am limited in experience, but I do not see an advantage playing in 5ths for Jazz licks, with the possible exception of creativity. If you are reading a chart with a cord progression of: C, F, G7, C, it doesn’t matter how you tune, there are certain things you must do. Although, Red Mitchell cooked with it.
With all due respect, I don’t ask for agreement, I ask for consideration.
Thanks for the thorough reply.
I agree with your point that shifts and pivots are needed anyhow and should be mastered. What I am trying to avoid (for the sake of intonation and articulation) are successive pivots or shifts. I try to always play at least 2 notes in a given position (or a long held note) between two shifts. In your description of major and minor arpeggios, one cannot avoid successive shifts, unlike with 4th-tuning.
I am not trying to tell that you are wrong and that I am right, only explaining what makes me reluctant. But I have great respect and admiration for those who made that change (from 4th- to 5th-tuning) successfully, starting with the great Red Mitchell, or classical players like Joel Quarrington.
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"...The thing that really bugs me with 5th-tuning is the impossibility of playing 3rds (minor or major) in Simandl technique without shifting or pivoting (except of course if an open string is available). Sevenths are even worse."
Confused by your comment; want to be clear that I'm trying to understand what you meant because I'm not sure if this is conjecture or experiential...?
***Quick Note*** Apologies, I missed the "Simandl" Techniques aspect of your comment, I openly have to admit I'm unfamiliar. Hopefully some of what I wrote will still apply.
A min 3rd in two frets away on the same string and a fifths tuning literally sets you up to move laterally across the strings and easily into extended range (1,3,5,7,9,11,13, etc). The Maj 3rd is just one more fret up. For me its SUPER easy to immediately do a Maj 7 or Min 7 arpeggio in any position.
Is your comment more related to chords? The other thing, because I play 6 string bass (A E B F# C# G#) I find its much more audible to play a "3rd" 2 strings over and an octave up and gives me the chordal clarity that I'm looking for.
The one major thing that complete blew my mind as I was getting familiar with the tune was the chord shapes are basically physically reversed, meaning the "shape" of a 4th gives you a 5th in this tuning and the shape of a 5th is the inverse. In other words, in standard tuning if I were to play a 5th style chord at the 3rd fret on the E and A strings (so G/D, 3rd and 5th fret) with my forefinger and ring finger, to play it in a 5th tuning it would literally be ring finger/ forefinger (G/D 3rd and 1st fret)...hopefully that makes sense...
Confused by your comment; want to be clear that I'm trying to understand what you meant because I'm not sure if this is conjecture or experiential...?
***Quick Note*** Apologies, I missed the "Simandl" Techniques aspect of your comment, I openly have to admit I'm unfamiliar. Hopefully some of what I wrote will still apply.
A min 3rd in two frets away on the same string and a fifths tuning literally sets you up to move laterally across the strings and easily into extended range (1,3,5,7,9,11,13, etc). The Maj 3rd is just one more fret up. For me its SUPER easy to immediately do a Maj 7 or Min 7 arpeggio in any position.
Is your comment more related to chords? The other thing, because I play 6 string bass (A E B F# C# G#) I find its much more audible to play a "3rd" 2 strings over and an octave up and gives me the chordal clarity that I'm looking for.
The one major thing that complete blew my mind as I was getting familiar with the tune was the chord shapes are basically physically reversed, meaning the "shape" of a 4th gives you a 5th in this tuning and the shape of a 5th is the inverse. In other words, in standard tuning if I were to play a 5th style chord at the 3rd fret on the E and A strings (so G/D, 3rd and 5th fret) with my forefinger and ring finger, to play it in a 5th tuning it would literally be ring finger/ forefinger (G/D 3rd and 1st fret)...hopefully that makes sense...
As I wrote in my post, my question was specifically about DB (since the previous poster mentioned he plays DB tuned in 5ths), using Simandl technique (this is the standard technique for DB, in which the left hand spans 2 half steps, played with fingers 1, 2, and 4). I see that with Simandl technique on a DB tuned in 5ths, it is necessary to play 2 successive shifts or pivots to play almost any triad; that makes it unattractive for me. But thanks for your input.
I think it would be fair to say there are advantages and disadvantages to either 4th or 5th tuning. In similar fashion, there are advantages and disadvantages to either French or Butler (German) bow holds. I prefer 5th tuning and a French bow hold. Pick your poison.
