The Fifths Tuning Club

[Cal03]

As a humble slab player who tries to practice jazz, I admit that walking a bass line is quite a bit more difficult in fifths than in fourths. I wonder if this is another case of the instrument determining the music. I imagine walking bass primarily developed on DB tuned in fourths and so we are again going against the grain by playing it on an instrument tuned in fifths.

At least it isn't anywhere as tedious as playing a walking bass on a large wind instrument!

 

[Gruff]

I think it would be fair to say there are advantages and disadvantages to either 4th or 5th tuning.

I tend to agree. So far I've found 5ths tuning makes no difference to playing bluegrass. Practicing scales means a little more shifting, but it's really just the grind of learning new patterns. The main disadvantage I've found in the couple of weeks I've been trying playing in 5ths is a few fast tunes that come from bass guitar, and when played on upright tuned in fifths I just can't get the speed to play them. Maybe that will come in time... I have decades of muscle memory devoted to playing in 4ths.

 

[Lowdownbassman]

At least it isn't anywhere as tedious as playing a walking bass on a large wind instrument!

Tuba, or not Tuba? That is the question. (Shakespeare)

 

[pklima]

Large wind instrument tangent: a multi-instrumentalist who also plays mandolin-family stuff and nyckelharpa and DB was asking me about tuning DB in fifths. I don't think he'll make the jump, but he got really excited when he found out I had some recordings of an ophicleide around - that was an instrument he'd only heard about in school and had never even heard.

Edit: and back on the electric side, I did get a 35" scale 5-string to try FCGDA on. Just arrived, still needs reassembling and then I'll have to order strings from NewtOne, which will take some time to be made and arrive, but it's happening.

 

[AllFifths]

As a humble slab player who tries to practice jazz, I admit that walking a bass line is quite a bit more difficult in fifths than in fourths.

I've seen a few people say this and it honestly confuses me. I don't understand why? Maybe I should start with the fact that I've focused on 4 notes per string, which isn't standard and does require "jumping" a bit, but I can play just about any Maj/Min scale on two consecutive strings, and with the last note being the octave, I can quickly transition up the neck. Not only that, but its extremely easy to play M/m 3rds arpeggios up the neck or laterally if I want to go "out"

I feeling like I'm missing something...can I ask you to give me an example of something you'd find difficult in 5ths?

 

[Cal03]

I've seen a few people say this and it honestly confuses me. I don't understand why? Maybe I should start with the fact that I've focused on 4 notes per string, which isn't standard and does require "jumping" a bit, but I can play just about any Maj/Min scale on two consecutive strings, and with the last note being the octave, I can quickly transition up the neck. Not only that, but its extremely easy to play M/m 3rds arpeggios up the neck or laterally if I want to go "out"

I feeling like I'm missing something...can I ask you to give me an example of something you'd find difficult in 5ths?

It's not so much difficult, more an inconvenience when compared to fourths, especially with playing thirds and sevenths. This is probably mitigated by dedicated practice, and it doesn't help that I still play bass in fourths alongside fifths...

Of course this is a non-issue for short enough scale lengths, I got no problems with thirds or sevenths on my fifth tuned ukes!

 

[AllFifths]

So I've been playing in 5ths since the 90s. I should also note that I'm not one of these guys with huge hands and my main bass (in the profile picture) is a multi-scale 35/34" so none of this is about the physical ability to be able to do these things. Some times I hop to positions, but honestly, not that often. Maybe because my Teacher was a Theory Nerd (and I'm an aspiring Theory Nerd) I found it to be extremely interesting how many hidden surprises I found position and pattern wise. I play 4 and 6 string, so not everything I do is extended range. I'll talk positions and intervals here because not everyone tunes the same notes (I tune A E B F# c# g#)

1) Just about everything is an physical inversion. The way you play a 1/5 chord in 4ths (lets say 3rd fret and 5th fret on two consecutive strings) would be the opposite in a fifths Tuning (3rd and 1st fret on two consecutive strings). Once you see this pattern, a whole lot of things reveal themselves and you can quickly figure things out, even watching other people (or at least, that worked for me).

2) 3rds are easy but "10ths" are better! A Maj 3rd or a min 3rd on the same string is 3 or 2 frets away. Those same notes are available two strings over, 1 octave up. In other words, 3rd fret and 5th fret two strings away would give you your Maj 3rd and 3rd fret, 4th fret two strings over gives you the min 3rd. For my taste, its actually better because frequency wise, you get more clarity and the 3rds REALLY cut in the "mix." I had always avoided chords on the lower consecutive strings because of the frequencies and muddiness, not any more!

4) Spread and inverted triads are right there. If I want to play a 1-M3-5 style triad on three consecutive strings, my positioning would be 5th fret, 7th fret, 8th fret and that would give me a 5-M3-1 chord (Meaning if I took a D Maj spelled D F# A, it would be A F# D). This is super cool for walking bass lines or for a cool fill in an unexpected way.

5) Need a more conventional way to play a chord because the Producer and Guitarist won't shut up? LOL! Fifth fret, Fifth fret and 7th fret on three consecutive strings gives you a 1 5 M3 chord that will sound more conventional. Fifth fret, fifth fret, 6th fret gives you the 1 5 m3.

If I need to play a chord SPECIFICALLY 1 3 5 (I'm thinking 6 string at this point, but this would work on a 4 string) I can finger it fret 5, fret 6 (two strings over) and fret 8 (two strings over). I find it cuts in the mix beautifully and may piss off the guitar player! LOL! (side note, I did work brief with a guitar who loved the fact that playing in "their" frequency range allowed things to sound more full, but not every guitarist I dealt with loved the idea that I could play what they played!)

6) 7ths are also extremely accessible on consecutive strings, as well as two strings over. The m7ths is two frets up (so think fifth and 8th fret, consecutives strings) and the M7th is too (5th and 9th frets, consecutive strings). Here's another cool neck "reveal"; the 3rd and the 7th are right next to each other, two strings over, i.e. I can play 5th fret and 6th fret two strings over and get the m3rd. If I play 3 strings over in the same position, I get the m7!

These are some of the things I found really intriguing about this tuning. There a LOT more (like how interesting it is to start thinking in 9ths, 11ths and 13ths, plus 6th harmony which I LOVE and sound amazing to my ears...

Anyone else find cool neck "secrets" or harmonic ideas?

 

[Cal03]

Here's a cool little "secret" I found! If you play two notes a minor third apart and move that over each of the strings, you get the Dorian mode of the note you started on in alternating thirds.

Here's a TAB illustrating what I mean, for CGDA starting on the bottom open string. You get C dorian:

(MuseScore still thinks the red notes are outside of the bass guitar's range even after I edited the string data )

If you tried this with major thirds instead, you get Lydian up until you reach the last note, which would be a sharp 15th instead! Reminds me of stacked fifths of George Russell's Lydian chromatic concept.

This begs the question. What are all the possible permutations of major and minor thirds in this fashion, and what "scales" do they produce? That would be 2^4 = 16 different permutations!

Since nobody asked, I'll list them out below. Having a major third at the very end will give us a sharp 15, so we can cut out half of the permutations and stick to the ones that will actually return us to the root. I'll list out the first three intervals, written as M or m for major third or minor third, respectively.

1. M-M-M = Lydian
2. M-M-m = Major
3. M-m-M = Lydian dominant (4th mode of melodic minor, also called the acoustic scale)
4. M-m-m = Mixolydian
5. m-M-M = Melodic minor sharp 4
6. m-M-m = Melodic minor
7. m-m-M = Dorian sharp 4
8. m-m-m = Dorian

Since we are keeping the same fret above the root, we will always get a perfect fifth, a major second, and a major sixth.

EDIT: This is assuming we are limited to using 4 strings.

 

[AllFifths]

Here's a cool little "secret" I found! If you play two notes a minor third apart and move that over each of the strings, you get the Dorian mode of the note you started on in alternating thirds.

Here's a TAB illustrating what I mean, for CGDA starting on the bottom open string. You get C dorian:
View attachment 4958419
(MuseScore still thinks the red notes are outside of the bass guitar's range even after I edited the string data )

If you tried this with major thirds instead, you get Lydian up until you reach the last note, which would be a sharp 15th instead! Reminds me of stacked fifths of George Russell's Lydian chromatic concept.

This begs the question. What are all the possible permutations of major and minor thirds in this fashion, and what "scales" do they produce? That would be 2^4 = 16 different permutations!

Since nobody asked, I'll list them out below. Having a major third at the very end will give us a sharp 15, so we can cut out half of the permutations and stick to the ones that will actually return us to the root. I'll list out the first three intervals, written as M or m for major third or minor third, respectively.

1. M-M-M = Lydian
2. M-M-m = Major
3. M-m-M = Lydian dominant (4th mode of melodic minor, also called the acoustic scale)
4. M-m-m = Mixolydian
5. m-M-M = Melodic minor sharp 4
6. m-M-m = Melodic minor
7. m-m-M = Dorian sharp 4
8. m-m-m = Dorian

Since we are keeping the same fret above the root, we will always get a perfect fifth, a major second, and a major sixth.

#THIS
...This is why I come to this site! Very cool! I'm going to have to go over this! Thanks!!!

 

[AllFifths]

#THIS
...This is why I come to this site! Very cool! I'm going to have to go over this! Thanks!!!

Like I mentioned, I'm an ASPIRING Theory nerd meaning I still have to think or write out things before I think of them that way.

One thing along similar lines that I saw someone mention somewhere else was that stacked 5th ultimately produce Lydian mode, which was something I never thought about. They also mentioned that Lydian is the PHYSICAL inverse of Locrian (meaning Lydian is R W W W H W W [H] root and whole/half steps) and Locrian is R H W W H W W (W) which seems like it would lead to something interesting...

 

[Cal03]

OK, just one more piece of theory nerdery, I promise to stop after this

This time the drop tuners can join in on the fun!

On two adjacent strings tuned a fifth apart, you can play the major scale using four notes per string, and the fingering would be the same on both strings. Are there any more scales that can be played this way?

Since we are moving over after four notes, we need a perfect fifth since it gives us the same fingering as the root. Similarly, the octave forces us to have a perfect fourth. That leaves us with the second, third, sixth, and seventh. But since we need the same fingering on both strings, whatever second or third we choose also fixes the sixth and seventh, respectively. So we only really have 2 x 2 = 4 options. They are

1. Major
2. Dorian
3. Phrygian
4. Double harmonic

For reference, here's a TAB for CGDA:

(Again MuseScore thinks I can't play below E1 even after I've changed the tuning to CGDA )

We can phrase the question in non-string language as follows. Which seven note scales with a perfect fourth and a perfect fifth have the same interval pattern for their lower and upper tetrachords? (I think that's right?)

 

[AllFifths]

OK, just one more piece of theory nerdery, I promise to stop after this

This time the drop tuners can join in on the fun!

On two adjacent strings tuned a fifth apart, you can play the major scale using four notes per string, and the fingering would be the same on both strings. Are there any more scales that can be played this way?

Since we are moving over after four notes, we need a perfect fifth since it gives us the same fingering as the root. Similarly, the octave forces us to have a perfect fourth. That leaves us with the second, third, sixth, and seventh. But since we need the same fingering on both strings, whatever second or third we choose also fixes the sixth and seventh, respectively. So we only really have 2 x 2 = 4 options. They are

1. Major
2. Dorian
3. Phrygian
4. Double harmonic

For reference, here's a TAB for CGDA:

View attachment 4958515

(Again MuseScore thinks I can't play below E1 even after I've changed the tuning to CGDA )

We can phrase the question in non-string language as follows. Which seven note scales with a perfect fourth and a perfect fifth have the same interval pattern for their lower and upper tetrachords? (I think that's right?)

No need to stop! This is super cool! For me, I can talk Theory or ideas with my Teacher and a few people but too many of my musician friends tend to respond to stuff like this with "YOU JUST NEED TO RAWK!!!" which...is true, but a bit reductive! LOL! I'm bouncing back and forth between work but I'm loving this!

 

[Gruff]

(Again MuseScore thinks I can't play below E1 even after I've changed the tuning to CGDA )

I'm still on Musescore 3, but right-click then "stave properties", then changing the values in "usable pitch range" works for me. Apologies if I've misunderstood your problem!

 

[Will_White]

I was putting a new set of strings on my CGDA bass and just for giggles put a plain guitar b string on instead of the A string, tuned it up to A an octave up and it sounded great with chords, a deep rumble from the G and D strings with the A string cutting through. Makes me want to try it in a power trio type mix. Anyone else try something like this?

 

[Watchootognbout]

While futzing around on my fifths tuned sixer,I discovered something astonishing.
The tuning makes it very easy to play this!


An arpeggiated Emb6 on my regular six is fingered this way.


An arpeggiated Emb6 on my fifths BTB six fingered this way.



Now.It is my aim to tap a bass line and the chord progression melody.

 

[Cal03]

An arpeggiated Emb6 on my fifths BTB six fingered this way.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/img_2005-jpeg.4967095/ https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/img_2006-jpeg.4967094/

Ah yes that's another fun neck "secret" . Just alternating back and forth between a C/E and Em can keep me entertained for a while. If you have another string available, you can also add a D on top. Here's a TAB in CGDA for those interested.

This chord progression in this specific voicing is one of my all time faves. I can barely finger these voicings in regular fourths tuning, and you'd need at least five strings to play it. Meanwhile in fifths it's laid out easily across only four strings.

 

[Allfifthstuning]

While futzing around on my fifths tuned sixer,I discovered something astonishing.
The tuning makes it very easy to play this!


An arpeggiated Emb6 on my regular six is fingered this way.
View attachment 4967093

An arpeggiated Emb6 on my fifths BTB six fingered this way.

View attachment 4967095View attachment 4967094

Now.It is my aim to tap a bass line and the chord progression melody.

I've made a chord and scale book [1] for AFT you may be interested in.
Wide range chords are easily fingered using this tuning.
[1] The Quintar Project / Code / [0d816e] /SaC

 

[Swift713]

Has anyone tuned a ukulele bass or a 25” micro bass in 5ths? What have you used for strings?

 

[Cal03]

Has anyone tuned a ukulele bass or a 25” micro bass in 5ths? What have you used for strings?

Don't know if this counts, but I recently got an Ibanez MiKro fiver that I've tuned as a 5 string cello (C2-G2-D3-A3-E4). I used Stringjoy guitar strings, gauges here.

 

[Swift713]

Don't know if this counts, but I recently got an Ibanez MiKro fiver that I've tuned as a 5 string cello (C2-G2-D3-A3-E4). I used Stringjoy guitar strings, gauges here.

The MicroBass is set up for those fat silicone strings and the bridge is not adjustable so most likely the intonation would be off.