The Fifths Tuning Club

[jharms80439]

@pklima ,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

When I had 5ths tuning on my 7 string bass (34" scale), I tried a bunch of plain string diameters for the high F - and I broke most of them. Tension for the highest string was high and I needed really low action on the high side for the bass to be even playable. Man those small string hurt differently than larger strings. . IF I remember correctly, .009 was the highest string and it felt too tight.

If I go by the traditional formula for 5ths tuning (string diameter / 3) * 2 for the next higher string, than with the 5ths Spirocore Weichs I have on my upright and my NS CR4, diameter of the low C is .128 (as measure with my digital caliper), calculated string diameters would be:

C - .128
G - .085
D - .057
A - .038
E - .025
B - .017

Which is pretty close for the lowest 4 strings.

When using the Kalium String Tension Calculator (and I don't know if it works for that long of a scale - but I do think it's pretty close) for 60 ish pounds of tension which is typical UB string tension territory, the upper two strings are in the .026 and .016 for the 60 ish pounds of tension. I don't think I want that much tension on the upper strings, so going down to 40 ish pounds gets me to .022 and .014 - and even 40 ish pounds may still be too high, but with a bow, it might not be that bad - any extended pizz playing would probably hurt though.

Since 10' of piano wire is ~$4, I can always buy a bunch of diameters even if I think the diameter is likely wrong - just to try them out.

(So, big) "IF" I end up getting the 6 EUB, I'll report back what diameters I end up using and theoretical tension. Again, I'm really only looking to have a 4 string CGDA 5ths tuned upright, but if I end up subbing for cello and violin parts with a bow, I'll have the extended range and just overlook the upper two strings when I'm playing bass parts.

John

 

[Cal03]

I know Tomoya Aomori used to play a 5-string DB in fifths GDAEB, so it looks like CGDAEB should be possible on an EUB.

As for BG I've strung my sixer in fifths before with a custom Kalium set, so much range!

 

[jharms80439]

Just a quick update on my EUB 6 in fifths project.

I was outbid on a NS Design EU6 on eBay, so that project is on hold for a bit, but I'll keep looking for another NSD EU 6. I should have never sold mine years ago - long before I went to fifths tuning. This was also way before I started playing acoustic upright bass (with lessons) and had to break all of my bad habits. Most of my basses at the time were 6'ers - until the pain in my wrists stopped me from playing basses with more than 4 strings - hence the fifths tuning move for more range.

As more background, my long ago 7 string experiment in fifths really didn't work out so well with the low F (sort of useless to my way of thinking) - and at the time both top strings were hella tight. Of course, this was really early in my transition to fifths tuning an to basses with no more than 4 strings and I didn't really know squat about fifths tuning strings.

FWIW, this week I did string up my Squire VI in fifths though - previously it was in guitar tuning. It's really tight spacing for finger style playing, but it has the range that I sought. I suck with a pick, so the VI hasn't gotten much use.

Now that I know it can be done with the right tension strings for playability, I may look for a 6 EB to string in fifths for the range to try it out. BTW, the source for Carbon Steel strings in a variety of sizes was also on the 'Bay too - just search for carbon steel piano wire.

John

 

[jharms80439]

Just to illustrate the HUGE range of instrument you get on a 6 string bass in fifths tuning, maybe this will help.

 

[Cal03]

I wrote in the ERB club a while back that those very top notes sound "fruity" rather than "tinny" compared to a regular electric guitar. The higher tension and longer scale length brings out a pleasantly distinct tone.

A capo on the top 4 strings can make comping and lead lines easier. My favorite one was capoing at the 10th fret to get viola/mandola CGDA.

 

[Mister_GothFrak]

I wrote in the ERB club a while back that those very top notes sound "fruity" rather than "tinny" compared to a regular electric guitar. The higher tension and longer scale length brings out a pleasantly distinct tone.

A capo on the top 4 strings can make comping and lead lines easier. My favorite one was capoing at the 10th fret to get viola/mandola CGDA.

Interesting!

Speaking of capos, have you guys heard of the FOMO FX: Virtual Jeff Pro ? It can do that sort of thing at the push of a button.

Pair it with a Gizmotron and you've really got that viola!

 

[arakiri]

hey everyone recently started tuning CGDA lovin it so far ill backread on all the info youve shared so thanks for that.
i only miss playin 3rds on the higher trings but also been lovin having easier access to 6ths and 9th chords so is a tradeoff

 

[Joel Moses]

I play double bass with fifths tuning and I'm getting a little to old to lug it around. I want to get a fretless acoustic bass guitar and put on fifths tuning. I need to find strings. Any ideas.

 

[pklima]

Do you want to play unamplified? Because in that case, flatwounds probably aren't a good idea. If amplified, I've gotten Chromes in gauges that work (and have recorded my Atelier Z hollowbody unplugged and used it for a small rehearsal), but really if amplified the best answer is probably a 3/4 scale EUB.

 

[Mister_GothFrak]

GHS flats. custom singles. use a string tension calculator (they have info on their site!)

 

[BarfanyShart]

For flats, Chromes are very easy to buy as singles. For rounds, Stringjoy does custom gauge sets, easy peasy, and I think those strings sound particularly good on acoustic bass guitar.

 

[Ralph Manak]

Gollihur Music is working on restocking 5ths tuning sets for 4- and 5-string NS Omni 34” scale basses. Meanwhile, assembling sets from available singles is the way.

 

[Joel Moses]

I'm thinking this may be a lonely club...

Why do you tune in 5ths? I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know.

For one thing the orchestra repertoire has music for the double bass that goes C1, the standard four string tuning goes only down to E1. Fifths tuning goes down to C1 with a standard four string bass.

 

[Lowdownbassman]

I'm thinking this may be a lonely club...

Why do you tune in 5ths? I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know.

Most bassists play in 4ths since middle school. They are used to it. It took me a year off and much practicing to learn tuning in fifths, but I am a slow learner. Worth it! If you play a passage tuned in 4ths then play the same passage on the same bass tuned in 5ths, you will hear the difference. You give up ease of playing 3rds, which must be practiced daily. Thumb position is just like cello.

 

[Lowdownbassman]

As Red Mitchel tells it when he decided to tune in fifths he blocked out an empty hole of 9 days in his calendar, rented a beach house for his family, and immersed himself in the tuning for those 9 days. At the end of that period he started playing gigs in the new tuning and I don't believe that he ever looked back. I am not 10% the bassist that Red was, yet my conversion experience is similar. My only musical training is on clarinet. I played in school bands from 3rd (?) grade through the first two years of college because I attended a two year campus of the University of Wisconsin at first, a campus so small that engineering majors were not only allowed to play in the band with the music majors, we were dragooned into playing with them! And once in the band we were dragooned again into singing in the choir but that is another story. I played around with bass guitar starting in high school and continuing until maybe my early thirties, without ever developing much skill. After three decades I joined a new church that had a worship band. And they were advertising every week in the announcement screens for bass players. So I bought a bass, practiced for a few months, and then let the worship pastor know that I wanted to try out for a position on one of the worship teams. He suggested that I apprentice first, sitting in a practices and playing along into headphones, which I did. After almost two months of that I was just on the verge of getting bored with that drill and had also just concluded that five strings were not what I wanted. I knew that BEAD was an option but having just learned about Red Mitchel and his followers I decided to give CGDA a try.

I ordered some strings and happened to get them and string up the bass CGDA right at a point where there was no worship band rehearsal for me to sit in on that week but I did have the song list for the following week. So I began practicing with 10 days time before the rehearsal. And it really was love at first sight for me. The fifths tuning gave me the range you "need" for "gospel" music and it gave me that range on a familiar, comfortable four string bass. Picking up the tuning was fairly easy since three of the strings were the same, if in the wrong order, and the D string was even where it was supposed to be. That left only one string that had to be learned from scratch. I walked into rehearsal 10 days later with a fifths tuned bass and a whole 10 days practice with it and then I looked around the room and felt a chill run down my spine. There was no other bassist in the room. And here is the worship pastor walking up to me with a HUGE grin on his face and the mere sight of that grin confirmed my fears, I knew what he was going to say before he said it. The other bassist had canceled out due to a conflict and would I mind playing that Sunday? So I had to play for them that evening for the first time ever using a tuning that I had only 10 days familiarity with. And I really had no time left to retune and relearn the music in the fourths tuning for Sunday so I had to play my first real "gig" ever using the same new tuning and only two more days practice. God is kind, it went pretty well! Not perfect, mind you....

Since then I have used fifths tunings exclusively. I sold the Ibanez fiver and bought a Reggie Hamilton Standard Jazz to "replace" it. I did that in part because I wanted to have a P/J as well as a straight Jazz and partly because the Hipshot tuner on the Reggie would allow me to get down to a B (I actually tune it to A) if I ever need to. Still waiting for that need to develop but it is nice to know that the capability is there. After a while the Reggie became my main player and I decided to tune the other Jazz to GDAE partly as an experiment and partly because my church suddenly has enough bass players but still lacks guitar players. I reasoned that the higher voice would be nicer for chording and if I could chord some I might be able to fill in for a missing guitarist. I can't chord well enough yet to be able to replace a guitarist but the high voice does chord nicely. Too nicely. Before long I was buying a used Fender Standard Jazz V so that I could have CGDA and GDAE at the same time. Ironic, huh?! The Fender does seem to work better for me than the Ibanez did. I'm still not sure if I will keep it or not. To some extent it is neither fish nor fowl and I still cannot seem to get completely comfortable with it. Lately I have been considering selling it and getting Bass VI, maybe an Eastwood Sidejack. If I am going to learn to deal with more strings maybe it makes sense to go with six.

If I do that I would tune it in fifths starting on either C (CGDAEB) like my others or the F above that (FCGDAE) which would make the top note the same as the top note on a standard guitar. Interestingly, Robert "King Crimson" Fripp has developed a nearly fifths tuning for guitars known as the New Standard Tuning. It starts a little lower and ends a little higher than the standard EADGBE guitar tuning: CGDAEG. Note that the last string interval is a minor third rather than a fifth. Evidently this was done because at the time he came up with it a top B string for that tuning was impractical. I wonder why he didn't just drop the starting note a little more? In any event there are some guitarists who use a nearly fifths tuned tuning so we fifths tuned BG bassists have company among guitarists as well as DB bassists.

Ken

It took me almost a year to get comfortable with 5ths tuning. I'm not as quick as others. I had to create my own exercises-mostly 3rds and broken 3rds. 7ths can be tricky also. Simandl doesn't translate well to 5ths tuning. I now think in 1st, 3rd, and 4th area, not 1st, 3rd, and 4th position.

 

[Dave Siff]

I just tuned my Roscoe fretless 5-string in 5ths with magnificent results! It helps to have a neck that doesn't budge.
Low to high: D-A-E-B-F#
The low string has a Hipshot D-tuner, which I set to B. So I've got a poor man's 7-string.
I went with these gauges: .110-.085-.070-.035-.020
It plays beautifully and the high-end chime is glorious.
Thoughts, esp. on string gauges?

 

[kirkdickinson]

I just tuned my Roscoe fretless 5-string in 5ths with magnificent results! It helps to have a neck that doesn't budge.
Low to high: D-A-E-B-F#
The low string has a Hipshot D-tuner, which I set to B. So I've got a poor man's 7-string.
I went with these gauges: .110-.085-.070-.035-.020
It plays beautifully and the high-end chime is glorious.
Thoughts, esp. on string gauges?

View attachment 7516871

Is this a 35" Scale Rosco?

Is your E (middle string) really tight? I ran the number on Kallium tension calculator and it shows string tension of 76 lbs. (assuming 35" scale)

I prefer string tension as close to 40 lbs per string as I can get. (or just under 40)

118, 73, 49, 31, 20

118 on the low string will give you 44lbs at D and 32 at B

 

[kirkdickinson]

110	27.6 / 39		118	31.6 / 44.7
86	53.3		73	39.1
70	80.9		49	40.9
35	48.1		31	38.5
20	38.6		20	38.6

 

[Dave Siff]

Is this a 35" Scale Rosco?

Is your E (middle string) really tight? I ran the number on Kallium tension calculator and it shows string tension of 76 lbs. (assuming 35" scale)

I prefer string tension as close to 40 lbs per string as I can get. (or just under 40)

118, 73, 49, 31, 20

118 on the low string will give you 44lbs at D and 32 at B

Thanks! This is a 35" scale bass. Your intervals look more sensible. A .118 D certainly would handle that drop to low B better.
My thinking was:
Low D is .111 in the La Bella DGCF set I used to play and .110 was as close as I could get.
I always use .085 for A.
I messed up the E, thinking it was a step below D... it's a step above, so something closer to .049 makes sense.
For B -- I use a .032 C string so I figured a half-step down should be a little heavier, so I chose .035.
The .020 F# is perfect.
I should say, this bass was previously in E-C tuning (and B-G before that) and the neck has barely needed adjustment. These strings tuned in 5ths all intonated spot-on out of the box.

 

[Prodigus Filius]

@Dave Siff I've dabbled in 5ths tuning but not a committed to it guy. So pardon for having my 10cents worth about those string gauges. If your happy with the lowest and highest string gauges, than a useful calculation to find the ratio between those two strings and apply it to have the remaining inner string gauges be in that ratio relationship is to
'Divide the smallest gauge by the largest gauge
and raise that to the power of 1 divided number the number of inner spaces bewteen the strings.'
So the equation for your 5 stringer would be
.020/.110=0.1818. Raise that to the power of 1 divided by 4. This gives a ratio of 0.6529. You can apply it from the largest gauge to each subsequent gauge by multiplying gauge by the ratio. Or start from the smallest gauge and multiply by the reciprocal of the ratio. In this case 1.531. Now applying that ratio to each string from smallest to largest by multiplying by 1.531 yields with rounding
F#3/.020
B2/.030
E2/.046
A1/.071
D1/.110

Obviously the exact gauge as given is not always possible for every string and one has to choose the closest gauge available in the brand and type of string desired. You can see that your 60 gauge and 85 gauge for E2 and A1 are a big departure from the ratio. A 45 sounds about right. Think of it as how E2 is on a guitar. Your .020 is common for G3 on a guitar and is a good fit for slightly downtuning without increasing the gauge in this case. Your .035 B doesn't depart from the ratio much. So prob not worth changing. So that leaves the 085 A1 string. You say you like that gauge. Nonetheless if you wanna do the ratio thing, swapping it out with an 070 is the go.
In summary. 3 of your gauges could stay in place. And replace the A and E with .070 and .045 gauges respectively.