The Fifths Tuning Club

[pklima]

Yeah, it's hard enough to get singles or custom sets for balanced fifths-tuning flatwounds; fifths-tuning tapes are.. well, yeah, there aren't odd-sized singles or custom gauges available and you're gonna have inconsistent tension unless you just home-tapeify a set of roundwounds. Never tried tapewounds for that reason.

Of course you could just a regular G from a 5-string set for the F# but that would be giving up a lot of the girth. And you could also ask octave4plus if he's willing to try making tapewounds.

 

[Prodigus Filius]

Yeah, it's hard enough to get singles or custom sets for balanced fifths-tuning flatwounds; fifths-tuning tapes are.. well, yeah, there aren't odd-sized singles or custom gauges available and you're gonna have inconsistent tension unless you just home-tapeify a set of roundwounds. Never tried tapewounds for that reason.

Of course you could just a regular G from a 5-string set for the F# but that would be giving up a lot of the girth. And you could also ask octave4plus if he's willing to try making tapewounds.

It’s really a bigger underlying gauge for the A to decrease the flub of a 135 tape that I’d teally want. I guess getting a manufacturer to do a one off is feasible. Not a diy thing unfortunately.
Skill snd equipment required

Post in thread 'The Comprehensive List of Black Nylon Tapewound Strings!!!'

May 6, 2010

Ok so I guess there must be some kind of mis understanding as to what I am trying to describe.
I mean flat as in flat, no visible windings, no bumps, ridges, ripples, ribs, flat like a piece of glass flat. Also just to clarify I do in fact know what tape wounds generally look like as I have used a few various brands of them over the years. So anyways with that said I want to share with you guys a stroke of genus I had today. I took some long strands of heat shrink tubing in two different sizes and coated a set of D’Addario chromes with it. Slapped ‘em on one of my p basses and I’m now in...

• SamanthaCay

• 

Some have tried heat shrinking an entire string as an alternative to nylon wrap

Thread 'Getting existing strings wound with nylon tape?'

Jan 15, 2019

This has to be possible somehow.

• Wiremessiah
• Replies: 10
• Forum: Strings [BG]

Doesn’t sound as if it is a positive thing to try as far as tone goes though

 

[Cal03]

Every once in a while I do feel the urge to tune down lower than CGDA(E). The C1 is low enough for plenty of settings but the prevalence of a low B due to 5 strings in fourths pushes me just a little lower. The problem I find is that gauges get fatter much more quickly past B0, even when using custom string gauges. A0 would be as low as I ever need to push it, but to get the ~40 lbs of tension recommended on a 34" scale bass I need a 0.154" from Kalium or a 0.165" from Stringjoy. Of course, this is an issue for anyone wanting to tune low, not just fifths tuning enthusiasts.


Also, I find it harder to readjust when tuning up or down away from CGDA(E) since I rely on the open strings a lot more than in fourths. Thus I never really pursued starting from A0. Maybe that can be solved with some diligent practice, a solution for everyone's problems around here!

 

[Cal03]

On an unrelated note, I've messed around with short scales-turned-piccolo tuned (tuned cello pitch CGDA or CGDAE) for a while now, using them as anyone would use a guitar for chords and accompanying. I find it intriguing how the natural shapes in this tuning influenced my harmonic choices and tastes.

Major and minor triads in any inversion are easy, but a 3-note power chord is bit awkward. Your pinky and ring finger needs to anchor the bottom two strings while the index or middle finger reaches behind to play the octave. A bar across the three strings gives me stacked fifths (of course!). I guess you could call it a 5 add9 or add9 no3? It's not a power chord anymore, but neither a major chord nor a minor chord. It's really easy to play in a pinch in fifths tuning, and the add9 gives it just enough color while still being neutral and stable enough to substitute a root position major or minor chord. So now I'm acclimated to this specific sound and have started using it in different musical settings, from keyboard stuff to composition.

I think it's a great sound: strong, stable, and just the right balance of neutral and colorful. Of course, Berkely lower intervallic limit rules still apply: it starts sounding too muddy to me past C2 as the root.

 

[Mister_GothFrak]

The other day I ordered a Greco GS940. I plan on defretting it, slapping on a Bigsby vibrato and tuning it FCGDAE like a 6-string cello.

I'll probably do more work like replace all the tuners, and maybe put a G&L MFD humbucker in to match the Fallout. Audere Pro Z 4 band preamp and a filter preamp with a 3-way switch.

Dunno about a bridge with piezos, will probably just get a good mic for the sound hole and run that through it's own signal chain for EQ and such before merging.

Ironically, it's going to end up doubling the bass one octave higher... aside from the Doom suboctave harmonic of the future Ashdown Head of Doom.

 

[pklima]

That's quite the plan. There are really only two things I'd check before drilling and cutting.

One, how wide is the neck and bridge? With a lot of the older non-Fender basses, the bridge string spacing can be as narrow as 15 mm, which would make cramming six strings in there even narrower than a "regular" guitar... though if you're still comfortable playing the unequally spaced strings on your Fallout, this will be more normal even if the total width is less.

Two, is there room behind the bridge for even the shortest Bigsby? I'm guessing this is fully hollow so a top-mounted horseshoe won't work and you'll need a trapeze model. Is the plan to remove the bridge pickup, move the bridge up, and shorten the scale which is not that big a deal with a defret? If you want to keep the scale at 30" and the bridge in its original location, though, a bigger-bodied shortscale hollowbody would make the Bigsby part a lot easier.

Having said that, I'm editing recordings of an acoustic two-string bass made from a curtain rod which I just tied to a cajon with strings to give it something to resonate more audibly, and I got harmonics out of it that are so high it sounds like a coping saw, so out-there concepts can and do work.

 

[Mister_GothFrak]

how wide is the neck and bridge?

I'm not sure but, it looks fairly wide. Considering the thickest gauge will be around .105-.108 and the top 4 much thinner, I'm not too concerned. Will almost definitely be playing with a pik or perhaps some type of e-bow but, I need to do more research on those.

is there room behind the bridge for even the shortest Bigsby?

I don't know! lol. Oh, and I am looking for a well made vibrato tailpiece. A big clunky on both of these to further differentiate them and show a little class.

I do plan on removing the original pickups and bridge. I was thinking a Schaller roller bridge would be best.

A shorter scale length would be fine. That would ease tension on the top two strings or perhaps would allow for heavier gauges to help keep it more like a cello than viola.

Yes, I do believe this is fully hollow. Unlike my Ibanez SRD905F which just has the upper half hollow and vanity, not sound, holes.

The pickup would be in the same spacing away from the bridge as the G&L Fallout.

Perhaps you are right about a larger body but, I really like the grain and shape of this one. Those pointy horns!

All good points you've made. Thank you.

I probably won't get around to this until later this year. I want to modify every one of my instruments... lol
The important part is getting the base basses then I can experiment with the tweaks later!

 

[z14giv1]

Hi, random question.
I shifted from guitar to bass more than a year and half ago, and damned was I late doing so…
Anyway, I've only one JB for now, but I'm wandering about having either a 5er or another bass meant to be experimented on — tuning wise— the limit being how expansive the strings are.

I'm toyed with various tuning on guitar, more often then not all fourth but I also tuned a uke (a pretty bad one with misplaced fret) in 5th. I had a thing at some point for tenor and plectrum banjo, though never bought a proper instrument and learned the matching repertoire (I mean things within my limited technical reach).

I like less strings, less headache. All fourth and all 5th tuning can be cumbersome but they are consistent which can ease the though process. Ultimately I don't want to create pain for my self. EADG and all fourth is going to be my bread and butter.

To the point after wandering around, have some of you wandered with plectrum banjo like tuning.
Pretty much it is a fifth tuning with an extra string thrown in for convinience.
On a banjo it is traditionally CGBD (the B string is thrown in between strings tuned in 5th C G and D).

I guess on a bass it would be really low to benefit of the chording and fingering shortcut the B string allows for.
Either FCEG would be closer to the usual electric bass range. I may go with DACE as some fingering (for the m7 to the octave for example) feel closer to bass and guitar (the same might be true for GDFA for those going after the highs notes and chords). I tried EACE for a while, nice chords and arpeggios though, I stop as work needed to be put on regular tuning.

Anyway, I'm not the point. That is a loss of range compared to an all 5th tuning, not much compared to the std EADG tuning, but as with banjo such tuning works well horizontally and you go down the neck more often. I guess the idea of an extra strings / relay string could be extended to a 5strings where the player deems it the most relevant to his playing.

Have any members experimented with it ? If so I'm interested in your story.

 

[pklima]

Interesting idea. If you don't spend a lot of time below G, and are familiar with the note locations, it could be quite nice, though having to fly to the upper frets (edit: well, OK, like, the 6th fret...) of the C string isn't going to be terribly convenient. Also I'd miss being able to do octaves and tenths with the root on the G string, but that's not as important in more rock or metal styles.

 

[z14giv1]

I just tried DACE and EACE again. I did not like it after a year of extensive all fourth playing. It is too different for me from std bass and guitar tuning, I guess and whereas I toyed with it all 5th is too.

I found something closer to «all 4th» that I enjoy though I won't pollute that thread discussing that point further.

 

[O72ii0]

I am so glad I stumbled upon this thread and it's not dead.

I read through quite a few pages but did not see...

Has anyone tried this on a multiscale 5 string?

I have been considering tuning one of my basses to 5ths. And I also want a multiscale instrument.

Any reasons why, or why not?

 

[Cal03]

I am so glad I stumbled upon this thread and it's not dead.

I read through quite a few pages but did not see...

Has anyone tried this on a multiscale 5 string?

I have been considering tuning one of my basses to 5ths. And I also want a multiscale instrument.

Any reasons why, or why not?

I've given this some thought, apologies for the long post incoming!

In theory a multiscale should be useful for mitigating the more extreme differences in gauge between strings for a balanced tension set. According to Mersenne's laws, string gauge and note frequency are inversely proportional when all other variables are fixed (string tension, string material, scale length). When you go up in fourths, that's a reduction in gauge by 3/4 between each consecutive string, but in fifths the reduction is 2/3. This quickly adds up with the larger gap in fifths tuning: a 5 string with a .130" diameter lowest string in fourths would need a highest string with .040" diameter, but for a 5 string in fifths the highest string would need a .025" diameter.

In practice the effect might not be as pronounced. For a 5 string tuned CGDAE (like mine!), and aiming for 40 lbs of tension spread out evenly across the strings (in the least squares sense), I used a regular 34" scale against Ibanez's EHB1005MS specs (assuming a uniform .5" decrease in scale length) with Kalium's string tension calculator. The differences are minimal. But if I use the BTB605MS specs, then we see a lot more deviation in the lower strings. You can see the screenshots in the attached images.

To me the real benefit of a multiscale is for tuning lower to avoid the inharmonicity of thicker gauges. Typically fifths tuning mirrors the open strings of the violin and mandolin families, so C1 is the lowest most of us go for. This isn't a strict requirement, and you can tune as low as you want. Sometimes I dream of having a 37" multiscale for a low F0...

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Luv you @Cal03.
Really.
Thank you.

 

[O72ii0]

I've given this some thought, apologies for the long post incoming!

In theory a multiscale should be useful for mitigating the more extreme differences in gauge between strings for a balanced tension set. According to Mersenne's laws, string gauge and note frequency are inversely proportional when all other variables are fixed (string tension, string material, scale length). When you go up in fourths, that's a reduction in gauge by 3/4 between each consecutive string, but in fifths the reduction is 2/3. This quickly adds up with the larger gap in fifths tuning: a 5 string with a .130" diameter lowest string in fourths would need a highest string with .040" diameter, but for a 5 string in fifths the highest string would need a .025" diameter.

In practice the effect might not be as pronounced. For a 5 string tuned CGDAE (like mine!), and aiming for 40 lbs of tension spread out evenly across the strings (in the least squares sense), I used a regular 34" scale against Ibanez's EHB1005MS specs (assuming a uniform .5" decrease in scale length) with Kalium's string tension calculator. The differences are minimal. But if I use the BTB605MS specs, then we see a lot more deviation in the lower strings. You can see the screenshots in the attached images.

To me the real benefit of a multiscale is for tuning lower to avoid the inharmonicity of thicker gauges. Typically fifths tuning mirrors the open strings of the violin and mandolin families, so C1 is the lowest most of us go for. This isn't a strict requirement, and you can tune as low as you want. Sometimes I dream of having a 37" multiscale for a low F0...

I actually appreciate the long post and explanation. Much appreciated for your time, input, and experience. The lower tuning is what I was considering. I currently play a 5 string tuned standard (BEADG) i suppose the appeal to me in considering 5ths tuning is the extended range without needing an additional string.
My though with the Multiscale was precisely to mitigate the "flub" of tuning down to an A.

I currently use EB power slinky strings which are 135-50... 25 seems super teenie haha.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Didn't realize that I was already in this club for over a year now. I strung up my Squier PJ Precision with a custom set that I think someone listed here (i forget) the same time I switched to 5ths on DB. No looking back.

I'm loving it and really thinking about replacing it with a 5 stringer. I love doing double stops on the EB (I might even sound better than DB). I playing just jazz and love Steve Swallow's sound/approach on electric. Seriously thinking about adding this to my arsenal than just figuring out things on the fingerboard to play on the DB. It's just a nice and different texture.

Anyhoo... gonna have to dig into the old posts about multi-scale. I was thikning the same too but if double stops gets harder, forget it.

 

[Lowdownbassman]

Aren't all basses tuned in 5ths high to low?

If you are only thinking about the fundamental, you have a point. However, if you ever get a chance to tune your bass in 5ths, just listen. The sympathetic vibrations go from low to high in the partials. If the sound on your bass is not improved, get a different bass. Bottom line: as musicians, are we about sound or convenience?

 

[Cal03]

In my experience, the increased sympathetic resonance from the open strings in fifths tuning is beautiful for acoustic instruments, but it also means you have to be extra diligent about muting when plugged in!

 

[Mister_GothFrak]

My though with the Multiscale was precisely to mitigate the "flub" of tuning down to an A.

I use and recommend either heavier guage strings and/or DR Strings DDT. I order custom sets through my local shoppe.

 

[jharms80439]

(I know this is the BG side of things, but it might be applicable).

Once upon a time I had a Conklin 7 string strung in fifths. I’m now mostly back to 4 strings strung CGDA.

Has anyone strung their 6 string upright bass in fifths - CGDAEB?

I ask as I may be picking up a NSD 6 string EUB and I plan on using plain strings for the high E and B. Interested in what diameter plain piano wire I should start experimenting with.

This will be for high arco parts where I need to cover for a cello and violin - and I don’t know if on a 41.75” instrument it’s possible or what tension (pounds) I should shoot for on the upper two strings to ensure playability arco or pizz.

Help?

John

 

[pklima]

Somebody's done a Bass VI in fifths, so that much range has been achieved but at 30" scale and I think starting at a low F so it only went up to the E you're aiming for. How high can you go without things breaking, well, a plain unwound steel string will theoretically break at the same pitch regardless of gauge although the reality is smaller strings are more likely to break due to uneven parts of the metal's structure. But if things break, changing gauge won't help much. In any case piano wire should have no problem with the tension, it might be more the playability of such a narrow string if you have the action as high as typical DB setups.

So if the A is like a 0.045 or 0.050 gauge from what I remember measuring my Spirocores, I'd start around 2/3 of that for the E - so say 0.033 - and then 2/3 of that for the B, so 0.022. The B is a major third higher than the octave G on an 8-string bass guitar, so it is high, but not unfathomably so.