The "Get Mad at Local Acts/Venues" Thread

[slackdaddy]

I agree that what you are talking about with pre-sale is tickets is, in fact, "Pay to Play". It is not a good way to go about booking shows. I do not know any respectable clubs that use this method.

Funny thing is, I recently received an email from a company called "Big Time Entertainment" saying they wanted to do a show with us. Then the pre-sale ticket thing came up. This was a big red-flag! So, I wrote back asking them to provide me with references from bands that they had worked with. Guess what happened.....I never heard from them again. Here is a great website that helps explain why this is pay to play:
http://www.wig-out.com/&pay-to-play.htm

Something that is particularly funny is the breakdown of where the money goes (you have to scroll down the page). Many of the things they site have absolutely NOTHING to do with the band or promoters. Also it leaves out many big expenses clubs deal with such as insurance and ASCAP/BMI licensing fees. It looks really nice but it really just B.S.

Simple fact is that it just takes a lot of hard work to build an audience.

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

the reason why we don't ask for much money to play is because the venues we play at dont take in a lot of money in the first place. we aren't playing at bars, we aren't playing big places, we're talking small places like teen centers, where they'll make maybe ~$100 off ticket sales all night. When we play legitamite places we get a garantee, for example, we're playing at the university of rhode island next month and we've got a $300 guarantee for that show.

sorry about calling it a "tour", we haven't self booked a real tour because we don't have the money for it, and we have jobs and school to do during the week, plus our van needs some fixin' before we go out for real. the goal of these shows is to get attention on us in our local region, and it just sucks to drive out to no crowd two nights in a row is all when you don't come back with much cash in your coffiers for your trouble.

I guess it is a bit like pay to play. The way i understand that system is that the company gives you say, 20 tickets and says if you don't sell all of them then you don't play, so if you can't sell all 20, you either have to buy the remaining tickets or not play. when i hear that i say hell no, even if i know we can sell 20 tickets.

and yeah, if you can't hit up your local mall, talk to strangers and see if they want to go to your show (which is also what we do if we're in the area early) and sell a few $5 tickets, i'm not surprised that you don't get booked on any other shows, because venues want to book bands that people want to see. that's business, especially when your only source of income is people coming through the door to see the bands play, not as a side thing, like at a bar.

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

Here is a great website that helps explain why this is pay to play:
http://www.wig-out.com/&pay-to-play.htm

Thanks for that website, really enlightening stuff. I actually dealt with them earlier trying to book a show in Worcester, as soon as they said "you NEED to sell tickets" i was like lol pz.

same with the emergenza fest, what a bunch of horsepoopie! i dealt with them when i was like 16, and even then i was able to figure out what a pile of **** it was.

 

[spunj13]

i meant to mention one of things that you hit on actually.
we very rarely play bars...
(even though all of us are 21 and over ... the youngest of us just having gotten there.)
and the nights that we DO play bars don't usually go well.
actual venues... vfws... basement shows.. that's where things go the best.

granted... the massachusetts scene is different from what's out here in the midwest (i'm actually from MA, though i live in MI now) but the gist is the same, i think.

if the door is barely pulling $100 on a regular basis then something is wrong.
i'm headed up near a college campus tomorrow night to play (about 150 miles away) and then another show the next day about 50 miles from there... and both should be pulling in quite a bit more than that.
next weekend we're driving to Iowa (another four hour drive)... for three days.

i feel you on the van thing though.
we're on our third van now... the second one having dropped transmission during tour in arkansas (long way from home) and then dropping the drive-shaft (literally... like... dragging on the ground) 3 hours from home. we left it there and ended up with an ex-dog-grooming business van (still says "the doggie barn" on the side) and a hunting trailer. there are holes in the floor and the transmission has some issues (yay...) but... why waste time? if you don't take the chance you never know what'll happen.

[spunj13]

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

i meant to mention one of things that you hit on actually...
actual venues... vfws... basement shows.. that's where things go the best.

...if the door is barely pulling $100 on a regular basis then something is wrong.

...i feel you on the van thing though.
[spunj13]

Yeah, thats what im saying. the venues, bands, everyone whos there to work depend on heads through the door to make money, and when you see maybe 5-6 people paying at the door, then what kind of an ******* would you be to demand like $100 when you watched them pull in only like fifty bucks?

part of being professional IMO is being courteous and understanding at times. If a venue was clearly withholding money from us would be one thing, but this is the situation of a couple guys trying to give bands like mine a chance to get out there and play, why demand something unreasonable when you know they're doing the best they can?

Still, has to be said that most of the time these venues arent doing the footwork they need to be doing to encourage people to get through the door in the first place.

our van actually seems to be much better nick that your average first band van. 500 wisely spent dollars got us a huge cargo van with a strong engine and tranny, brand new suspension. $400 later we've got new brakes and fixed a cracked rotor. a few more man hours to revive the rear brakes, fix the fuel smell and fix some grounding issues and it'll be good to go for the summer!

i think this thread is derailed a bit, but thanks for not making it an insult bash!

I'm off to another weekend of shows! we've been hitting these areas hard so hopefully we'll have turnout this time, i'll report in!

 

[TheVoiceless]

OK, here is my 2 cents.

What I feel is missing from the music scene is the middle man/woman. The promoters that actually get people through the door. First off most clubs are run by drug addicts and drunks. And promoters want the bands to do all the work. If I owned a club I would hire promoters that could get people through the door based on their reputation. Just cause Band A sells 25 tickets cause they have a lot of friends but they suck ass and Band B sound great but are new and don't have a huge group of friends I would book the later. Because I would want patrons to not even care who was playing my club because they knew that the talent would be great. I know this sounds alot like how the cover scene works.

But what happened to the personalties of the music biz, the Matt Pinfields and other people that listeners trust for there music opinion.

I feel that its up to everyone involved to get people through the door because its a win win!!!

But its not fair to blame a local act for the turn out of your show.

My advice to everyone involved is, CLUBS!!! Try and build a rep for having good bands and accommodate your patrons. Be involved. The Saint in Asbury Park NJ is great for that. I don't totally agree with everything they do but they have a great selection of beers, advertise the crap out of there place and provide a good sound system. They also only book talented bands. Maybe I'm not a fan of their style but they don't sound like poop at 200 decibels.

Bands!!!! you need to promote yourself. By any means. And work on your live sound and show. If your a touring band then expect to play to now one. Im not going to see your band just cause you hit me up on myspace and will be in the area. But id you were great and my friend saw, I would go next time you were around. Also don't be afraid to contact local press. But have realistic expectations.

Thats it my fingers hurt LOL

 

[thisSNsucks]

I didn't read the whole thead but here's my advice to the OP.

Dont expect any favors from anyone.

Venues expect the band to bring in the customers. Before going on tour, like WAY before going on tour, promote yourself to people in the area.

Whore yourself, and your band out to everyone on myspace that lives in that area and try to get them to come check you out. Getting the names of the other bands on the bill can help if they're local too.

I agree that there should be promoters but lets face it, if a promoter came up to you and said, "Hey theres a show, and (instert no name band here) is playing! Would you really go?

I've played shows where it was us, the other bands, and the sound guy in the beginning. Just think of it as your right of passage and next time, do some more of the leg work.

 

[Johnny Mac]

I'm a bit confused on the whole "preselling tickets is pay-to-play" thing. The way I understand it is the band gets tickets to sell before the show, usually at a discount from the venue price, and whatever money they make from those pre-show sales is theirs to keep. Is that wrong?

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

yup, and we're doing the leg work yet again.

actually this weekend was a welcome relief, our show friday was the same old stuff, small venue run by guys who didn't really know what they were doing throwing a show. there was a local act to open, then us and two other really good bands playing, the big act was apparently a very popular local band. not popular enough though, because only a handful of people came but we made good friends with the two good (read: more professional/older/serious) bands, and we sold some shirts to the people that did come, so we were able to eat.

tonight's gig was what I wish all gigs were like. The Sad Cafe in Plaistow, NH. great sound system, great soundguy, and when we got there the place was packed, thanks largely to a local band that does a great job getting their crowd out to their shows. Luckily we knew this band (solid hard rock originals) from before and they're fans of ours and encouraged their crowd to stay for our set, so we had a bunch larger crowd than we've been getting AND the soundguy was nice enough to record our show off the board and hand us a copy of our show. definitely a welcome break from the 4 person shows! we got on board with as many shows as possible with that local band because they like us, we like them, and they know how to do what we wish we could do!

 

[JWClark(ABD)]

Big Time Entertainment MySpace-message'd my band a while ago. We shot it down b/c it sounded terribly shady. Less than a week later, my MySpace page for my classical composing (Link Removed) got a message from... BTE's Cleveland guy, telling me that he dug my band's sound and we'd be perfect for a show he was putting together. Keep in mind, all the music on that page was chamber music (mostly solo piano 12-tone stuff). So I wrote back, explained how genres worked, asked if he was planning to pay for rehearsal time, and finally, if he realized that he'd simply copy/pasted the verbatim email to my rock band and my classical pages... no reply yet.

I agree that what you are talking about with pre-sale is tickets is, in fact, "Pay to Play". It is not a good way to go about booking shows. I do not know any respectable clubs that use this method.

Funny thing is, I recently received an email from a company called "Big Time Entertainment" saying they wanted to do a show with us. Then the pre-sale ticket thing came up. This was a big red-flag! So, I wrote back asking them to provide me with references from bands that they had worked with. Guess what happened.....I never heard from them again. Here is a great website that helps explain why this is pay to play:
http://www.wig-out.com/&pay-to-play.htm

Something that is particularly funny is the breakdown of where the money goes (you have to scroll down the page). Many of the things they site have absolutely NOTHING to do with the band or promoters. Also it leaves out many big expenses clubs deal with such as insurance and ASCAP/BMI licensing fees. It looks really nice but it really just B.S.

Simple fact is that it just takes a lot of hard work to build an audience.