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The "Get Mad at Local Acts/Venues" Thread
- Thread starter GearHeadBassMan
- Start date
We had a similar situation this past Monday except we were the local band. There were 2 bands coming in from out of town and the coffee shop owner who we know (they have a room that holds about 100-125 people) asked us to play with these other bands. We didn't get a ton of lead time (maybe a couple weeks) so we couldn't promote it as heavily as we usually do.
We have played this venue a couple times in the past and drawn decent numbers but due to a number of circumstances we were only able to get about 30 of our fans there. We were hoping the other bands would draw some people in but there were maybe 4 or 5 people who weren't there because of us. Some of our people left before the other bands played so these other two were playing for maybe 20-25 people which is sad because they were pretty good.
We did about as much as we could to get people to the venue (half priced CDs, a free bonus CD of a couple more tracks we recorded, etc) but since a large portion of our crowd tends to be younger it was a school night for them and most of them were out very late the night before so it was hard for them to make it there.
I am sure these two out of town bands were hoping we would draw a bigger crowd. We were hoping these two bands would have drawn an crowd so we could have a new audience to play for. So in some ways we all failed.
We have played this venue a couple times in the past and drawn decent numbers but due to a number of circumstances we were only able to get about 30 of our fans there. We were hoping the other bands would draw some people in but there were maybe 4 or 5 people who weren't there because of us. Some of our people left before the other bands played so these other two were playing for maybe 20-25 people which is sad because they were pretty good.
We did about as much as we could to get people to the venue (half priced CDs, a free bonus CD of a couple more tracks we recorded, etc) but since a large portion of our crowd tends to be younger it was a school night for them and most of them were out very late the night before so it was hard for them to make it there.
I am sure these two out of town bands were hoping we would draw a bigger crowd. We were hoping these two bands would have drawn an crowd so we could have a new audience to play for. So in some ways we all failed.
So, as I understand it - you signed an agreement to play opening gigs 8-10x per month within a 100 mile radius for 3 months, and did not agree on getting paid any minimum fee?
You can't really get mad when a local band doesn't pull through. It's happened with my band and several of the bands we play with. Playing shows as an original band can be a gamble. Either way we suck it up and play like there's 300 people. Even if there's only 30. Sometimes no matter how much you promote people just don't come out...it happens.
Selling tickets in advance is pay to play in my book. We only do it if it's for a slot on a show with bigger regional/national acts.
Selling tickets in advance is pay to play in my book. We only do it if it's for a slot on a show with bigger regional/national acts.
yes. theres nowhere to go but up, its how all the legitamite, successful all-ages venues/production companies i've dealt with does business
1.) we're a new band
2.) we don't have any kind of label support
3.) we're doing this currently as a serious hobby, we all have honest jobs until we can do without them
once we prove to the local scene that we deserve to be paid, we don't ask for any more than $20 to cover gas money, although we've been paid up to $150 due to presale/door tickets coming for us.
if we were booking an actual tour, thats when we'll start looking for garantees for getting paid, because thats when we'll really need it. Might as well let the venues try it before they buy it.
and it's original music, so we have to go through all the stuff original bands have to go through.
Not to sound arrogant, but we're emerging very quickly in the area as one of the better bands available and are getting recognition as such by other local bands (which is a nice feeling)
And since you are playing for nothing you have already set the value of your band. Why would a venue start paying you decent money since you will play for gas money.
Once upon a time, venue staff actually did work to promote their venues and events. They took care in cultivating an image for themselves in being a place to go to see new and up and coming acts. They did this through various means (some more than others) such as customer relations (e.g., being honest and friendly with customers, having decent selection of consumables and drink specials); physical presentation (keeping their place inviting visually [decor, etc.], sonically [i.e., decent sound system], comfortwise [furniture/fixtures, climate control, etc.], hygeine-wise [adequate rest rooms etc.]); regularly hosting well-thought-out events that didn't pander to the lowest common denominator (musical genre themed nights, DJs, bands, etc.); and adequate promotion (all of the above helps generate word-of-mouth promotion by customers, but supplemental promotion via posters, flyers, newspaper ads, working with promoters, etc. helps too). A good venue owner will make his or her venue a place people want to go in general; and not just rely on the efforts of specific bands to make crowds of people want to come out for one specific night.
Nowadays it's more likely that the people in charge of many venues do the bare minimum to stay open... They offer nothing exceptional to appeal to customers, don't put much effort into putting together decent/cohesive events or features, barely advertise (and when they do it seems most of the time they can't even be bothered to spell the bands' names right), etc. The bands are expected to do most of the promotion, advertising, bringing in paying customers, etc., and they rarely make any extra money for their extra efforts. Terms are often changed after the fact by venue owners, bar staff and bouncers are often cold or rude to patrons, and both performers and customers are left with a bad taste in their mouths, while venue owners try and maximize their profits by any means possible, both honest and dishonest, while putting as little as possible back into their venues and events.
Bands having to sell tickets to events held at venues they don't own and for events they didn't put together is such BS. Incompetant and lazy venue owners and promoters need to actually do their jobs instead of trying to run rackets. Performing artists should be considered investments, not desperate marks. Just as one might invest money in a good sound system, attractive bar fixtures, lighting, decor, etc., one invests money by organizing events and paying bands to play in order to help make the venue more attractive to paying customers.
Nowadays it's more likely that the people in charge of many venues do the bare minimum to stay open... They offer nothing exceptional to appeal to customers, don't put much effort into putting together decent/cohesive events or features, barely advertise (and when they do it seems most of the time they can't even be bothered to spell the bands' names right), etc. The bands are expected to do most of the promotion, advertising, bringing in paying customers, etc., and they rarely make any extra money for their extra efforts. Terms are often changed after the fact by venue owners, bar staff and bouncers are often cold or rude to patrons, and both performers and customers are left with a bad taste in their mouths, while venue owners try and maximize their profits by any means possible, both honest and dishonest, while putting as little as possible back into their venues and events.
Bands having to sell tickets to events held at venues they don't own and for events they didn't put together is such BS. Incompetant and lazy venue owners and promoters need to actually do their jobs instead of trying to run rackets. Performing artists should be considered investments, not desperate marks. Just as one might invest money in a good sound system, attractive bar fixtures, lighting, decor, etc., one invests money by organizing events and paying bands to play in order to help make the venue more attractive to paying customers.
The problem is you are upset that there were no people there - and hence no one to sell your merch to - which you were counting on as part of your compensation for playing these gigs.
If you're just looking for experience playing out, then that's fine - but you don't need 30 gigs and 5,000 miles of travel to get that.
If you were hoping to sell stuff to make money, then I would have phrased the contract to mention a minimum fee is required if X number of people don't show up to a gig. Otherwise they could book you for whatever and whereever they want, and you'd be stuck playing to 5 person events.
There's another issue being an opening band - many people know when the main act is starting - the band they are coming to see - and will sometimes just skip the opening band anyways. So 100 people could come to the show - but they could all show up after you started playing. (heck, we do headline gigs as the only band, and people don't usually start rolling in until towards the end of the first set!)
I'm just not sure what you're getting mad about. If you want people there - advertise the gigs online as many places as you can. If you're upset that the local band isn't drawing a crowd, then you should talk to the booking agency for setting you up with unwanted bands. Either way, the whole thing sounds like a lot of work and sacrifice for little in return.
If you're just looking for experience playing out, then that's fine - but you don't need 30 gigs and 5,000 miles of travel to get that.
If you were hoping to sell stuff to make money, then I would have phrased the contract to mention a minimum fee is required if X number of people don't show up to a gig. Otherwise they could book you for whatever and whereever they want, and you'd be stuck playing to 5 person events.
There's another issue being an opening band - many people know when the main act is starting - the band they are coming to see - and will sometimes just skip the opening band anyways. So 100 people could come to the show - but they could all show up after you started playing. (heck, we do headline gigs as the only band, and people don't usually start rolling in until towards the end of the first set!)
I'm just not sure what you're getting mad about. If you want people there - advertise the gigs online as many places as you can. If you're upset that the local band isn't drawing a crowd, then you should talk to the booking agency for setting you up with unwanted bands. Either way, the whole thing sounds like a lot of work and sacrifice for little in return.
Sending out Myspace messages is a start, but it's not what I would call 'promoting.' You have to get your hands dirty--Pay your dues. You can't expect the venue and the other bands to bust their humps to get people out if you're just doing web blasts.
I hope I don't sound harsh, I'm just trying to help out. There's more to getting people out than just 'being a good band.'
btw, how do you draw locally? Would it make more sense to build your local fanbase, than to travel all over and only play the same area once every other month?
I hope I don't sound harsh, I'm just trying to help out. There's more to getting people out than just 'being a good band.'
btw, how do you draw locally? Would it make more sense to build your local fanbase, than to travel all over and only play the same area once every other month?
Once you perform for a club owner or a promoter for free have fun trying to get payed for any gigs after that from those people,and even if they pay you for future gigs they will lowball till the day they die.
If you value yourself and time and travel as free,well I quess I dont know what to tell you???
If you value yourself and time and travel as free,well I quess I dont know what to tell you???
You can't blame the local bands for not promoting your "touring" band. I've found that you can't even expect the venue to promote your band; this doesn't make sense to me, but I guess some venues don't want patrons/customers.
The point is, you have got to promote yourself.
Sorry things didn't work out the way you had hoped.
The point is, you have got to promote yourself.
Sorry things didn't work out the way you had hoped.
the first time we play a place, we dont draw because no one knows us. we've only played the same place twice, and the second time was to a considerably larger crowd who were clearly into our music. this weekend is the second time we're playing a venue where we had kind of a lower turnout show a few weeks ago, and we've gotten word from almost everyone who was there for our set (plus a few more from the area) saying that they are definetly coming out to see us again. Once we get our name out in the area, we are drawing fairly steadily. thats why we're doing these series of shows, to create buzz and all that.
I dunno, i think lunarpollen said it better than I did about why I'm really mad in the first place. it sucks that some venues don't do anything to promote their shows, and i dont understand why they don't, since they need money to keep the damn places open.
and no, we're not opening the shows, i used that as an example, as we're the type of band that would be called (and have been called for some of our upcoming shows) to play direct support for so and so touring bands, we're in that position. as of right now, we try to play in the middle of the night, where the crowd is best. playing last or first at our level is a fools errand.
i know most of the teenage, 20s level guys would know where im coming from, the gigging scene is messssssed up.
i'm going to throw my 2 cents into the ring.
don't take this the wrong way... as it's not meant to be snarky, but it will sound like that at times.
1. playing every friday and saturday night within 50 to 100 miles of home is NOT touring. my band does that... every single weekend. often farther away than that.
2. it takes time to build a draw... i can understand that. make friends with bands in the places you are going to ahead of time. they'll help draw for/WITH you.
3. ask more money. the venues will take you more seriously.
4. promote yourself. promote EVERY show ... it doesn't matter how far away it is.
5. get on a real tour. self-book if that's what it takes. we're getting ready for our fifth self-booked tour. always done on our own... everywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks.
6. down shows will happen, shrug it off and keep on going.
7. always... ALWAYS ask for guarantees. (see #3)
8. if you ARE playing within 50 to 100 miles, even up to 200 miles of home? you are still a local band. it's still part of YOUR scene so you are still at least partially responsible for the draw.
[spunj13]
don't take this the wrong way... as it's not meant to be snarky, but it will sound like that at times.
1. playing every friday and saturday night within 50 to 100 miles of home is NOT touring. my band does that... every single weekend. often farther away than that.
2. it takes time to build a draw... i can understand that. make friends with bands in the places you are going to ahead of time. they'll help draw for/WITH you.
3. ask more money. the venues will take you more seriously.
4. promote yourself. promote EVERY show ... it doesn't matter how far away it is.
5. get on a real tour. self-book if that's what it takes. we're getting ready for our fifth self-booked tour. always done on our own... everywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks.
6. down shows will happen, shrug it off and keep on going.
7. always... ALWAYS ask for guarantees. (see #3)
8. if you ARE playing within 50 to 100 miles, even up to 200 miles of home? you are still a local band. it's still part of YOUR scene so you are still at least partially responsible for the draw.
[spunj13]
I'm still trying to get a grasp on what you did to promote the show. Dig? The onus shouldn't only be on the venue.
i really enjoy the way our local production comapny runs things the gist of it being that the local bands are provided with a number of set promotional tasks that need to be done at times leading up to the show by every member of every band if and only if these tasks are completed then the bans will get paid and get signed for shows that way there is people coming in the doors for the venue and the bands it works but i belive the most important thing is to always have your show soughted if you are impressing the people then the likelyhood of them returning or even just supporting you is increased man we are using the greatest resource a band has at his disposal do your research find out what the local bands that you will be playing with are and communitcate with them on how you are going to get the most amount of people out to the show use myspace i am sure they want the same thing that you do. another thing we always do is confirm the date before we accept the show and then we research to find out what is going to be on that night event wise if something clashes and it is going to effect the numbers of your show don;t think maybe its alright because trust me it will not be people will always pay the extra to see the bigger act everytime. just a few points not saying i have all the answers because i dont but just helpful logical tips goo luck.
You're arguing semantics. Instead of you fronting the money to play, i.e. pay to play, the venue is "giving" you tickets to sell. But, if you don't sell them, you won't be invited back. It's pay to play either way.
Anyway, about getting excited when you have a small crowd, you just have to be a pro about it. Being in a touring band is not easy. Good luck
Don't play these places if you can avoid it.
Personally, I could not handle having to sell tickets and raise money for a local venue in order to be allowed to play; I think that sets up a bad precedent.
In all my 15 years of gigging I only have 2.
1. After Hurricane Katrina hit we had to cancel a gig. The singer had to go to LA to pick up some relatives. The bar manager wasn't happy. Next month comes and we are supposed to play there again. Bar manager calls me a week before gig and says "I accidentally double-booked so I have to cancel you". She refused to cancel the other band. I called her out on it and told her that we would never play there again.
2. Played with this band at a hole-in-the wall. Only 3 people at the bar all night. Owner refused to pay us. Made up excuses (lies) - said we started late, we didn't "bring anybody" (as in a crowd), etc. In not so many words, I told him that he has 1 week to pay me. I went back the next week and he had my money.
1. After Hurricane Katrina hit we had to cancel a gig. The singer had to go to LA to pick up some relatives. The bar manager wasn't happy. Next month comes and we are supposed to play there again. Bar manager calls me a week before gig and says "I accidentally double-booked so I have to cancel you". She refused to cancel the other band. I called her out on it and told her that we would never play there again.
2. Played with this band at a hole-in-the wall. Only 3 people at the bar all night. Owner refused to pay us. Made up excuses (lies) - said we started late, we didn't "bring anybody" (as in a crowd), etc. In not so many words, I told him that he has 1 week to pay me. I went back the next week and he had my money.
