The Great Bass Preamp/DI Comparison

[Hypercaffium]

Yes, I've seen that pretty often.
That's because like I said a raw signal is often unbalanced, harsh, and simply not pleasant. HPF/LPF tools help taming those frequencies and act as some sort of a filter.
IRs do the same thing, but in a different way. The "filter" is a virtual speaker that tame frequencies and also give a specific character to the overall sound, if you want.
I find IRs more practical, but it's just personal preference.

 

[Zbysek]

I find IRs more practical, but it's just personal preference.

Yep, they are probably very practical from the player's perspective-you can have your favourite cab's sound in a small box always with you....but they might not be always as practical from the sound tech's perspective. For example, under certain circumstances, the sound tech might need bass frequencies for overall mix in certain range, let's say 40-70 Hz...but the particular IR used by the bass player might contain deep cut in this range...

But I don't mean to deny IR their usefullness...

That's because like I said a raw signal is often unbalanced, harsh, and simply not pleasant.

I agree that sending unaltered full range bass guitar signal to FOH might not always sound good...but the thing is: the sound tech needs a material to WORK WITH.

Let's make an analogy with cooking: raw meat does not always taste good. But a cook needs it to make many different delicious dishes. If you give him "altered" meat (eg. smoked) you will limit his ability to work with it. He will be able to cook certain dishes, but no other dishes.

IMHO, the same applies to bass signal. Now, we have entered the territory of "pre v post signal to FOH"...​

 

[Zbysek]

Let me add that, IME, some sound techs use software plug-ins for bass (often modelled after Ampeg) by default.

That's a reason why I am little hesitant to use a cab sim if I encounter a sound tech who I don't know and who I don't have time to talk to...like during summer festivals with quick change-overs...

I try to prevent two EQ profiles (cab sim and plug-in) fighting against each other...

 

[PeterH]

Amperex Bugle Boy? If so, that's a real nice tube.

Not sure what kind of deal Micah got for them, but I didn't pay what you see for if you look up Bugle Boy prices... I think it's just a NOS ECC83, unless I'm getting confused on this. He gave me the choice between that or a Telefunken NOS ECC83...

 

[TheLopp]

Let me add that, IME, some sound techs use software plug-ins for bass (often modelled after Ampeg) by default.

That's a reason why I am little hesitant to use a cab sim if I encounter a sound tech who I don't know and who I don't have time to talk to...like during summer festivals with quick change-overs...

I try to prevent two EQ profiles (cab sim and plug-in) fighting against each other...

I almost always send 2 signals to our FOH guy. One with "my" sound, with IR, the way I want it to sound. And one clean signal for him to work with IF there is something he finds missing.

If I go out and listens to the sound I want it to sound like me but I do understand that certain venues, circumstances or whatever need something else to sound good. And I trust the FOH to understand and get that.

 

[Zbysek]

I almost always send 2 signals to our FOH guy. One with "my" sound, with IR, the way I want it to sound. And one clean signal for him to work with IF there is something he finds missing.

That's an ideal solution.

If I go out and listens to the sound I want it to sound like me but I do understand that certain venues, circumstances or whatever need something else to sound good. And I trust the FOH to understand and get that.

Yours is a reasonable approach, IMO.​

 

[Hypercaffium]

I undestand. I think I see things mostly from player's perspective. Sending the raw signal to FOH makes things definitely easier for the sound tech.
Isn't "Pre vs post signal to FOH" a different thing? Pre/post means "pre EQ" and "post EQ", so you have two different options, but both of them are applied to the raw signal. So the IR aspect isn't involved.

I almost always send 2 signals to our FOH guy. One with "my" sound, with IR, the way I want it to sound. And one clean signal for him to work with IF there is something he finds missing.

That's a good approach. I usually use the thru output on my SLO into an amplifier and the DI into an active monitor.

 

[Zbysek]

Isn't "Pre vs post signal to FOH" a different thing? Pre/post means "pre EQ" and "post EQ", so you have two different options, but both of them are applied to the raw signal. So the IR aspect isn't involved.

It's similar thing, IMHO. Simply said, IR is another EQ profile, generally.

The main difference (not unimportant though) is that IR is usually not being changed during the show...while player may decide to change his EQ setting during show...which would affect FOH if he sends "post" signal...

 

[Hypercaffium]

Right. So if you send the "pre" signal to FOH to avoid any kind of "mismatch" you can tweak your EQ as much as you want, but only you will hear the difference. Maybe the member of your bands (if they're listening )
About the IRs, I have 2 of them set to work with my main 2 basses. I use one with the Jazz and the other with the StingRay. They work very good without the need to touch the EQ on the SLO.

 

[Bassworship1]

Ok...here's a good old mellow Gordon Lightfoot tune that has a great bass part. Not as simple to play as one might imagine. I kept pushing time on it. Sorry about that, but it's just a demo.

Here's the signal chain:

Bluesman Vintage P/J (passive) --> All Things Equal buffer --> FEA Labs DE-CL compressor --> [sfx]microThumpinator --> Arkham Oracle --> RNDI --> Allen & Heath Zedi10 Mixer --> GarageBand

The track had low end cut sloping steeply from 500hz down. Poor Gord's vocals got thinned out too...sorry. Still got a little bleed through of the bass on the track at the beginning.

I recorded this with no effects in GarageBand. Just the signal from my board. What you are hearing is a VERY small amount of compression (if any as I was not digging in on this tune) and the Oracle.

Dropbox - Oracle Demo - If you could read my mind.wav - Simplify your life

That is really nice bass tone.

 

[chadhargis]

BUT... I see a lot of people here that don't use IRs at all, even people who perform live a lot more often than me, so I'm curious to hear from you guys why do you prefer to send a raw signal to PA instead of using IRs.

I find when I add an IR it is either too muddy or too bright, or too SOMETHING. I tend to shape my tone with the EQ, which is really all an IR is doing. It's passing the signal through an EQ that is shaping the tone.

Having built bass cabinets for cars for a few years when I was younger, I know that cabinets and bass frequencies always have tradeoffs. A cab will nearly always have some sort of compromise. So why would I want to sound like the compromise? If I sent a nicely scuplted signal to the PA, I get the benefit of subs, line arrays, MUCH more power, and of course the sound guy can put in whatever magic they want.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but to me...a good PA is a FAR, FAR better cabinet than any bass cab I've ever heard. One of the reasons I play bass today is when I was singing in the choir in church the bass player let me play a few notes on his bass. The PA was up loud and when I felt the building shake and heard that thunderous tone coming from the number of line arrays and four dual 18" subs running thousands and thousands of watts....I was hooked. It gave me literal goosebumps.

That is really nice bass tone.

Thank you sir! As you can see from this thread...I've been searching for that tone for 102 pages.

I really like my rig now. Of course, I liked it with the SLO too, but someone with an Oracle wanted a SLO so we traded and here I am. I don't think I'll ever stop.

I do think I will pick up another SLO and make a small, light rig. Maybe a tuner, compressor, and the SLO...and that's it. The big board is starting to get fairly heavy and it is uber expensive too. Thousands of dollars on that board!

 

[Bassworship1]

I find when I add an IR it is either too muddy or too bright, or too SOMETHING. I tend to shape my tone with the EQ, which is really all an IR is doing. It's passing the signal through an EQ that is shaping the tone.

Having built bass cabinets for cars for a few years when I was younger, I know that cabinets and bass frequencies always have tradeoffs. A cab will nearly always have some sort of compromise. So why would I want to sound like the compromise? If I sent a nicely scuplted signal to the PA, I get the benefit of subs, line arrays, MUCH more power, and of course the sound guy can put in whatever magic they want.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but to me...a good PA is a FAR, FAR better cabinet than any bass cab I've ever heard. One of the reasons I play bass today is when I was singing in the choir in church the bass player let me play a few notes on his bass. The PA was up loud and when I felt the building shake and heard that thunderous tone coming from the number of line arrays and four dual 18" subs running thousands and thousands of watts....I was hooked. It gave me literal goosebumps.



Thank you sir! As you can see from this thread...I've been searching for that tone for 102 pages.

I really like my rig now. Of course, I liked it with the SLO too, but someone with an Oracle wanted a SLO so we traded and here I am. I don't think I'll ever stop.

I do think I will pick up another SLO and make a small, light rig. Maybe a tuner, compressor, and the SLO...and that's it. The big board is starting to get fairly heavy and it is uber expensive too. Thousands of dollars on that board!

I'm hoping the Noble with the new additions I've made will be it for me. I do think it would be hard to beat the tone I've got right now with my basses and the Cali-Starlifter- RNDI though. I guess as bass players we will always be looking to one up what we have lol.

 

[jacoby75]

The only reason why I didn't buy one yet is the lack of IRs, which I use all the time with my SLO. I find IRs essential when going direct and/or when practicing at home, the overall tone is always much more balanced and pleasant to my ears, especially when using distortion and effects in general. I'm perfectly able to get a decent tone with any preamp, even without IRs, but they usually make things easier for me.

BUT... I see a lot of people here that don't use IRs at all, even people who perform live a lot more often than me, so I'm curious to hear from you guys why do you prefer to send a raw signal to PA instead of using IRs.

I only perform a handful of times a year currently, and by "perform," I mean play in a small church. So take my opinion for what it's worth. That being said . . . I used to use a DSM OCSD, and I felt that it was great for using overdrives and running direct. But once I got it dialed in to where I liked it with my overdrives, I felt that it darkened up my clean tone too much. I just couldn't really get it dialed in to where I consistently liked what it was doing to my tone. And I inevitably wound up playing through an amp anyway, so I found it superfluous. I came to prefer the pure, clean tone of my signal, which seemed stronger, punchier, more dynamic than when using a cabsim. For the same reason, I have come to only use overdrives/distortions/fuzzes that have a clean blend, so it does not overtake the whole signal. With those, I feel the need for a cab sim less. If I were doing home recording or something, I'd probably use a cab sim of some kind. But then again, maybe not. Most of the time when I recorded, they just took the DI straight from my bass, and then would tweak everything digitally with various EQ's and sims. The magic of ProTools. That being said, back when I actually recorded, most of this awesome cab simming technology didn't even exist.

Also note that number of players has been using high pass and low pass filtering recently (either as part of amp/preamp features or in the form of a separate pedal) which can substitute for cab IRs...

I use HPF pedal and use LPF on my amp

Yes. This. I use a Broughton HPF/LPF always-on. It really tightens up my tone in a fantastic way and makes my amp more efficient. It's similar to a cabsim. And it cuts the harsh high end from overdrives. I no longer feel the need for a cab sim.

 

[ThisYouCanTrust]

For the same reason, I have come to only use overdrives/distortions/fuzzes that have a clean blend, so it does not overtake the whole signal. With those, I feel the need for a cab sim less.

To me the big mystery is why do distortion pedals with blend and IR apply the IR to the whole signal and not only to the distorted signal ?

 

[jacoby75]

To me the big mystery is why do distortion pedals with blend and IR apply the IR to the whole signal and not only to the distorted signal ?

That would be an intriguing pedal concept. Maybe too complicated? Otherwise, I know some actually physically split their signals themselves and run a clean and dirty channel, and then blend the two. In those scenarios, it would be possible to have a cab sim/IR pedal that was only on the dirty loop. But that kind of setup makes my head and my wallet hurt.

 

[SteveC]

I was debating a HP/LP filter, but I feel like compression has "tightened up" my sound a lot.

 

[jacoby75]

Ok...here's a good old mellow Gordon Lightfoot tune that has a great bass part. Not as simple to play as one might imagine. I kept pushing time on it. Sorry about that, but it's just a demo.

Here's the signal chain:

Bluesman Vintage P/J (passive) --> All Things Equal buffer --> FEA Labs DE-CL compressor --> [sfx]microThumpinator --> Arkham Oracle --> RNDI --> Allen & Heath Zedi10 Mixer --> GarageBand

The track had low end cut sloping steeply from 500hz down. Poor Gord's vocals got thinned out too...sorry. Still got a little bleed through of the bass on the track at the beginning.

I recorded this with no effects in GarageBand. Just the signal from my board. What you are hearing is a VERY small amount of compression (if any as I was not digging in on this tune) and the Oracle.

Dropbox - Oracle Demo - If you could read my mind.wav - Simplify your life

Mmmmmm. Nice tone.

 

[Low Down Brown]

That would be an intriguing pedal concept. Maybe too complicated? Otherwise, I know some actually physically split their signals themselves and run a clean and dirty channel, and then blend the two. In those scenarios, it would be possible to have a cab sim/IR pedal that was only on the dirty loop. But that kind of setup makes my head and my wallet hurt.

It's not a dedicated distortion pedal, but the HX Stomp does a great job of this ^^^

The A/B channel split lets you keep a dry signal that you can blend with your dirt > EQ > octave > IR > etc. I've been experimenting with that setup. Currently running Becos Stella > Lightning Boy Nuvison > HX Stomp. The Stella and Nuvision are my A channel (foundation tone) and the B channel is my IR's (currently the Orange AD 200B + 8x10) and other FX. I blend them into an LA-2A comp block (and maybe a HPF/LPF block) at the end of the chain and boom...thick and lovely.

 

[Benny4P]

Interesting posts here. I use the IRs of my SLO all the time and there is absolutely no way to recreate the IR effect with EQ. With HPFs/LPFs... maybe, but that would be a more expensive option.

 

[scubaduba]

Ok...here's a good old mellow Gordon Lightfoot tune that has a great bass part. Not as simple to play as one might imagine. I kept pushing time on it. Sorry about that, but it's just a demo.

Here's the signal chain:

Bluesman Vintage P/J (passive) --> All Things Equal buffer --> FEA Labs DE-CL compressor --> [sfx]microThumpinator --> Arkham Oracle --> RNDI --> Allen & Heath Zedi10 Mixer --> GarageBand

The track had low end cut sloping steeply from 500hz down. Poor Gord's vocals got thinned out too...sorry. Still got a little bleed through of the bass on the track at the beginning.

I recorded this with no effects in GarageBand. Just the signal from my board. What you are hearing is a VERY small amount of compression (if any as I was not digging in on this tune) and the Oracle.

Dropbox - Oracle Demo - If you could read my mind.wav - Simplify your life

Sounds great!