The Great Metronome Debate

[micguy]

Jeff Berlin sounds like he just got insulted by an audio engineer and had to get pedantic on him to feel better. This video reeks of "I'm not wrong, you're wrong".

I have to say, listening to his video, I agree with some of his points and disagree with others. I do actually learn things in time - I play a few wrong notes or miss a few the first time through if I don't know the music, I miss fewer the next time around, fewer the next, etc until I know it. I do that because I want to start with the right feel, and then get the notes right, not the other way around - I think it's precisely because I have naturally good rhythm that I learn this way - to me the wrong note at the right time is far less of a distraction that the right note at the wrong time.

The first drummer I ever played with on a rock band was a "metronome" - If he ever played with a metronome, it was to help the metronome calibrate itself. We were a really good band, partially because we had a solid drummer. Timing is important, but (at least for some of us) you don't have to practice with a metronome to have good timing.

 

[lfmn16]

People who don't practice with metronomes are generally a nightmare to play and record with. I worked in a studio for awhile and I still help people record now and then. No. You don't have "naturally good rhythm". The number of times I've heard that line... You just haven't been in situations that are unforgiving enough rhythmically for your offbeat self to notice. That is all.

+1

Also, if you don't record yourself, you don't really know what you sound like. I've never talked to anyone who recorded themselves and then said, "Yup, that was perfect, no room for improvement." Most people only think they have perfect timing.

If the debate is 'Should I use a metronome all the time every time I play' then I would say no. But 'are there places where it is helpful', then absolutely.

 

[Lownote38]

Jeff Berlin sounds like he just got insulted by an audio engineer and had to get pedantic on him to feel better. This video reeks of "I'm not wrong, you're wrong".

I can assure you Jeff hasn't been insulted by an audio engineer at any point in his career, and the video does reek of "I'm not wrong. You're wrong". Why? Because Jeff IS right. Does Jeff say it in a nice way? Absolutely not! You haven't expressed your opinion about it in a nice way either.

I personally have no problem with people using metronomes. I've never had to, and graduated with a degree in music without using one. What irks me about what you're saying is that somehow I'm not "in the know" or "a nightmare to play with and record" because I don't use metronomes. I can play with a click track just fine, and have to do it all the time. If that counts as using a metronome, then okay. I've used one in live and studio settings. Never to learn a piece of music though. I can assure you that no one has ever said I have bad time, that I'm a nightmare to play with, or a nightmare to record.

I stay neutral on the subject of metronomes. If they work for some people, that's cool. I don't require using one, or tell students not to use one if I'm teaching.

I don't want to sound angry about it like Jeff does, and how you do. Both sides can come off as insulting to others, and quite harsh.

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

I can assure you Jeff hasn't been insulted by an audio engineer at any point in his career, and the video does reek of "I'm not wrong. You're wrong". Why? Because Jeff IS right. Does Jeff say it in a nice way? Absolutely not! You haven't expressed your opinion about it in a nice way either.

I personally have no problem with people using metronomes. I've never had to, and graduated with a degree in music without using one. What irks me about what you're saying is that somehow I'm not "in the know" or "a nightmare to play with and record" because I don't use metronomes. I can play with a click track just fine, and have to do it all the time. If that counts as using a metronome, then okay. I've used one in live and studio settings. Never to learn a piece of music though. I can assure you that no one has ever said I have bad time, that I'm a nightmare to play with, or a nightmare to record.

I stay neutral on the subject of metronomes. If they work for some people, that's cool. I don't require using one, or tell students not to use one if I'm teaching.

I don't want to sound angry about it like Jeff does, and how you do. Both sides can come off as insulting to others, and quite harsh.

You are not the person that my post was about. You may not remember when it happened, but clearly at one point you learned how to use a metronome and play along with one. If you "have to play with a click track all the time", then I think it's safe to say that you have practice/experience using a metronome.

I'm talking about people who don't have said experience, act like it's not valuable, and then can't play to a click when the need arises. Those people are extremely common. I was one of those people for a long time. No one would have called out my playing as being off beat in a live setting, but in the studio, I was a mess.

Let's put it this way. If you are in the studio trying to record a part and you look through the glass to see your audio engineer lighting a cigarette, it's time to practice to a metronome.

As for me not saying things in a nice way. Maybe I'm not. However, no one is getting fired from their gig for reading my post. I have however seen people get fired from bands for not heeding what my post is warning about. I've seen musicians get sent home from the studio. I've seen musician's parts get secretly rerecorded after they've left the studio. Timing is a critical part of being a professional musician. It's truly what separates the amateurs from the pros in many cases. Metronomes certainly do not hinder someone's rhythmic growth and I've only improved from using one.

 

[Charlzm]

First off, this thread is not about bashing any bass players.

I am just trying to understand a reasoning why metronomes dont help players learn good time. I have read the arguments.and watched the videos against metronomes, but I don't get it. If someone can summarize that argument convincingly, I would like to hear it.

Btw, I use the metronome pretty much daily, especially when learning tricky pieces. I am a big believer in the gnome.

I only use the metronome when learning difficult passages in order to slow down the part accurately then get it up to speed.

Or recording. I always record to a click.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I can assure you Jeff hasn't been insulted by an audio engineer at any point in his career, and the video does reek of "I'm not wrong. You're wrong". Why? Because Jeff IS right. Does Jeff say it in a nice way? Absolutely not! You haven't expressed your opinion about it in a nice way either.

I personally have no problem with people using metronomes. I've never had to, and graduated with a degree in music without using one. What irks me about what you're saying is that somehow I'm not "in the know" or "a nightmare to play with and record" because I don't use metronomes. I can play with a click track just fine, and have to do it all the time. If that counts as using a metronome, then okay. I've used one in live and studio settings. Never to learn a piece of music though. I can assure you that no one has ever said I have bad time, that I'm a nightmare to play with, or a nightmare to record.

I stay neutral on the subject of metronomes. If they work for some people, that's cool. I don't require using one, or tell students not to use one if I'm teaching.

I don't want to sound angry about it like Jeff does, and how you do. Both sides can come off as insulting to others, and quite harsh.

Thank you for your kind words.
For the record, a very nice person and excellent, and knowledgeable musician, Lownote38 uses the metronome/click on a regular basis to record demos, etc...

 

[Lownote38]

You are not the person that my post was about. You may not remember when it happened, but clearly at one point you learned how to use a metronome and play along with one. If you "have to play with a click track all the time", then I think it's safe to say that you have practice/experience using a metronome.

I'm talking about people who don't have said experience, act like it's not valuable, and then can't play to a click when the need arises. Those people are extremely common. I was one of those people for a long time. No one would have called out my playing as being off beat in a live setting, but in the studio, I was a mess.

Let's put it this way. If you are in the studio trying to record a part and you look through the glass to see your audio engineer lighting a cigarette, it's time to practice to a metronome.

As for me not saying things in a nice way. Maybe I'm not. However, no one is getting fired from their gig for reading my post. I have however seen people get fired from bands for not heeding what my post is warning about. I've seen musicians get sent home from the studio. I've seen musician's parts get secretly rerecorded after they've left the studio. Timing is a critical part of being a professional musician. It's truly what separates the amateurs from the pros in many cases. Metronomes certainly do not hinder someone's rhythmic growth and I've only improved from using one.

Well, the first time I played to a metronome/click is something I remember quite clearly. It was the first time I went in and played a studio session. I learned the songs already (and not to a click). Did I have a problem playing with the click? Nope. Did I get fired? Nope. Did my part get re-recorded? Nope. Did I get more work? Absolutely!

You should write a book, Captain Obvious. Telling me that timing is critical and separates the amateurs from the pros? Seriously? You know what's just as important? Playing the right notes. Most sessions bass players get called for should be stuff they can play in their sleep anyway. If you can't keep time in quarter notes, or eighth notes, and you're going into a session, you might want to think about another profession. You were a mess in the studio due to your nerves. It sounds like it really affected your ability to have a positive attitude. Possibly permanently! If a metronome solved your studio nervousness problem, then that's great, but you've experienced the placebo effect. How do I know this? Because your timing was fine in a live setting. You didn't need a metronome. You needed confidence.

 

[Lownote38]

Thank you for your kind words.
For the record, a very nice person and excellent, and knowledgeable musician, Lownote38 uses the metronome/click on a regular basis to record demos, etc...

Yes. I do. Not for initial song ideas, but if I have to use MIDI instruments, or drums, I have to use a click. Thank YOU for the kind words!

 

[oldcatfish]

First off, this thread is not about bashing any bass players.

I am just trying to understand a reasoning why metronomes dont help players learn good time. I have read the arguments.and watched the videos against metronomes, but I don't get it. If someone can summarize that argument convincingly, I would like to hear it.

Btw, I use the metronome pretty much daily, especially when learning tricky pieces. I am a big believer in the gnome.

---I just don't get the argument against them. I use them and highly encourage my students to use them too. No, you don't have to play everything with a metronome once you are at an advanced level, but EVERYONE can improve their timing, no matter how good it already is.

I'm a multi-instrumentalist and have good time according to other skilled musicians that I have played in bands with. But I still know that I have weaknesses. For example, playing straight eighth notes is no challenge to me, even using a metronome app that goes silent for multiple measures before coming back in. But a complex, syncopated line played at my technical limits is challenging to me with the metronome, if it drops out for more than a few bars. If my timing was "perfect" I would have no trouble.

Now the argument might be, what real world application would I need to do that. My answer is this. For me, I find that I need to practice things that are a lot more challenging than I need to actually play in a performance, so that I can enjoy performing and avoid getting nervous. Maybe it's just my personality, but that's been my experience.

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

Well, the first time I played to a metronome/click is something I remember quite clearly. It was the first time I went in and played a studio session. I learned the songs already (and not to a click). Did I have a problem playing with the click? Nope. Did I get fired? Nope. Did my part get re-recorded? Nope. Did I get more work? Absolutely!

You should write a book, Captain Obvious. Telling me that timing is critical and separates the amateurs from the pros? Seriously? You know what's just as important? Playing the right notes. Most sessions bass players get called for should be stuff they can play in their sleep anyway. If you can't keep time in quarter notes, or eighth notes, and you're going into a session, you might want to think about another profession. You were a mess in the studio due to your nerves. It sounds like it really affected your ability to have a positive attitude. Possibly permanently! If a metronome solved your studio nervousness problem, then that's great, but you've experienced the placebo effect. How do I know this? Because your timing was fine in a live setting. You didn't need a metronome. You needed confidence.

Most players I've seen in the studio could benefit from more practice to a click. Nervousness was far from my issue in the studio. The reality is, we all get away with things live that just don't cut it when we are recording. That's what I was referring to.

 

[TjMetalhead]

One of the reasons why I never bothered playing with a metronome (even though a lot of pros I talked to insisted that I do) is because of the nature of the progressive music I write. My compositions are long and have many time changes and many tempo changes that I tend to take artistic liberty with so a metronome couldn't help in that situation especially with some off time beats.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I'll just put this here.

 

[Lownote38]

Most players I've seen in the studio could benefit from more practice to a click. Nervousness was far from my issue in the studio. The reality is, we all get away with things live that just don't cut it when we are recording. That's what I was referring to.

Okay. I can understand that. (Live vs. studio). I will have to agree to disagree with the first part of what you said, though. I just know way too many musicians who never practice with a metronome (and never did) who do just fine with a click in the studio. That's my experience here in Nashville.

 

[Herrick]

I was watching some Jeff Berlin interviews/lessons last week and he said something like you have to learn the notes and the parts of the song first and that a metronome will detract from that. I agree about learning the notes and the rhythm first...but then I'll use a metronome to help me get up to the correct tempo if I need to.

Maybe some players don't need to use a metronome for that. They can just play the part slowly and increase the tempo incrementally without a metronome. I don't see how it's a problem either way *shrug*

 

[groooooove]

i was taught it's a good tool just to check how you're doing.

I tell my students when preparing a piece that they should use a metronome every 4th time they play (if there are specific tempo problems.)

some do it more, some less, but it's a good tool to be able to use sometimes. over use of a metronome i think is a really big mistake.

 

[Muttleybass]

I spent two years of the 80's playing in a duo with a drum machine. Drum machine's don't lie. Now I can tell immediately if a drummer has tempo issues, and play to a click in the studio without a problem.

Are they helpful? I think so. Are they necessary? For some people, for sure.

 

[SteveCS]

... With a metronome very slowly really cleans up your technique. Without - you will play the parts you're capable of faster and slow down for the hard bits.

If that is a flaw in one's technique then yes that may happen, but its not a given by any means, and using a metronome is not the only cure...

 

[fclefgeoff]

I would just like to take a moment to mention that there is no difference between a metronome and a click track.

 

[RustyAxe]

Someone please pick up dictionary and look up tempo, timing, and rhythm. You guys are talking about three related but different things. No wonder it's contentious!

 

[PullThePlug]

A metronome has only helped my playing. I'm not aware of any set backs, only felt like improvement.

I like to use a metronome when my band records or practice (when we can) - because we want a steady beat that the crowd can dance to. Any interruption seriously hinders the band - audience relationship.

We want our fans to be satisfied, tired, and potentially inebriated by the time we are done.

EDIT: Spelling is hard