The Gripmaster

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by fgenus


FUNGUS??? Ouch Chris, now that hurt!!! (Dooh! I knew I shouldn't have used my first initial + last name for my username)

Bruised (but not beaten),

- Frank Genus

Sorry, that was too easy to pass up. However, an unwritten rule of the NAME GAME is that anyone who wishes to have their name remain untouched has only to say so, and the request will be honored. Any bruising was strictly unintentional....Say the word, and you shall be fgenus forevermore.

Yours,

P*SS FISHJELLO

 

[Camel_spit]

hey chris is that your cat on your avatar?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Camel_spit
hey chris is that your cat on your avatar?

Actually, it's the cat from the Bunny Bass wars called "Frankie Machine", but I have a cat ("Fred") that is a dead ringer for the little guy in the picture. JT snagged the pic for me to use as my avatar when I became a supporting member, but if he hadn't, I probably would have tried to recreate it with Fred and my DB. Since Fred still has claws, I'm sure that my bass (or at least the back of it) is as grateful for JT's help as I was.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

By the way - and I'll likely get flamed for this - there's another good reason not to use a Gripmaster: IMO, most of the motion that you use to press down a string on the bass should NOT come from your fingers - it should come from larger muscle groups like the wrist, forearm, and biceps.

If you were to ever immobilize your wrist and forearm and then try to play bass, you would find it nearly impossible, low action or not. This is because your fingers are not really what makes it all happen - that's just a common misconception based on the fact that they are the part that actually touches the string. In fact, the motion of the fingers has very little to do with fretting well (again, in my opinion), because every small muscle group is attached to a larger one which most often controls the motions of the smaller one. For instance, when you make the motion that is similar to turning a doorknob, you're making that motion with your wrist, right?

Wrong. You're actually doing that with your bicep, and the wrist is just what you see moving (try making this motion while holding onto the bicep muscle if you need proof). In my experience, very little of the important motions used to play many different instruments (such as Guitar, BG, DB, and Piano) are actually made by the fingers themselves - they are almost always made with the larger muscle groups that control the whole hand, and Gripmaster doesn't do a damn thing to help strengthen or train these areas.

 

[Hategear]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
In my experience, very little of the important motions used to play...are actually made by the fingers themselves - they are almost always made with the larger muscle groups that control the whole hand, and Gripmaster doesn't do a damn thing to help strengthen or train these areas.

If that's the case (which I agree, it is), then using a Gripmaster would indeed strengthen all of the muscles involved in moving your fingers in a fretting motion, no?

 

[Camel_spit]

aha, i see great promise in this one, for he is clever.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Hategear


If that's the case (which I agree, it is), then using a Gripmaster would indeed strengthen all of the muscles involved in moving your fingers in a fretting motion, no?

You'd think so, but I am convinced that the answer is no. Have you ever tried a gripmaster? I've had several students bring them to their lessons, and I was able to explain why I thought they were useless in person very quickly. Over the net, it may be more difficult or even impossible. BUT....

When you fret a Bass Guitar, there are basically two left hand positions you can use: Thumb on the back of the neck, and thumb around the back of the neck. When the thumb is on the back of the neck, the fretting motion is actually made by a rotation of the wrist. In person, it's easy to demonstrate this - rather than the fingers pistoning up and down to press down the string, they stay almost locked in a fixed position, and the actual leverage behind the fretting motion seems to be coming from a pivoting of the wrist around the fixed point of the thumb; but in actuality, the real driving force behind this motion is a tiny movement of the left bicep, which controls the rotation of the forearm. In the thumb around the neck position, the same principle holds true, but the motion of the bicep is even smaller; the drawback is that the capacity for reaching is greatly diminished.

If you doubt this, try holding your bass and playing a four note chromatic passage on each string while touching the inside part of your left bicep by the elbow while you are fretting. The truth is, you don't really need strong fingers at all to play the bass - a motion that might require 95% of the total strength of a finger to accomplish will only require a fraction of the same muscle capacity of the bicep (like maybe 1 or 2%) to do the same thing. The key is coordination and balance...it takes a lot of practice to gain such subtle control of such a large muscle, but the result - healthy, proper technique which will last the rest of your life, and which puts you in almost no danger of injury - is more than worth the effort.

 

[Hategear]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Have you ever tried a gripmaster?

Actually, I have. I bought one when I first got my bass a little over seven years ago -- it's been collecting dust ever since (the Gripmaster, not my bass).

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[merlin]

Despite playing bass for an hour everynight i always had trouble getting that little finger to work. A few of the riffs my band was writing called for the little finger.

As i do alot of driving during the day, i borrowed the gripmaster off my guitarist, and it was something to pass the time while sitting at the lights and the radio decided to play its nonsense of adverts before the news. But then that all changed and i rarely drive, and i just stopped using it. So i gave it back to him.



Merls

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by fgenus


Unzip pants, drop drawers, look down.... aaah, found it!

If there was ever a boundary to be crossed i think we found it.



Merls

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



You'd think so, but I am convinced that the answer is no. Have you ever tried a gripmaster? I've had several students bring them to their lessons, and I was able to explain why I thought they were useless in person very quickly. Over the net, it may be more difficult or even impossible. BUT....

When you fret a Bass Guitar, there are basically two left hand positions you can use: Thumb on the back of the neck, and thumb around the back of the neck. When the thumb is on the back of the neck, the fretting motion is actually made by a rotation of the wrist. In person, it's easy to demonstrate this - rather than the fingers pistoning up and down to press down the string, they stay almost locked in a fixed position, and the actual leverage behind the fretting motion seems to be coming from a pivoting of the wrist around the fixed point of the thumb; but in actuality, the real driving force behind this motion is a tiny movement of the left bicep, which controls the rotation of the forearm. In the thumb around the neck position, the same principle holds true, but the motion of the bicep is even smaller; the drawback is that the capacity for reaching is greatly diminished.

If you doubt this, try holding your bass and playing a four note chromatic passage on each string while touching the inside part of your left bicep by the elbow while you are fretting. The truth is, you don't really need strong fingers at all to play the bass - a motion that might require 95% of the total strength of a finger to accomplish will only require a fraction of the same muscle capacity of the bicep (like maybe 1 or 2%) to do the same thing. The key is coordination and balance...it takes a lot of practice to gain such subtle control of such a large muscle, but the result - healthy, proper technique which will last the rest of your life, and which puts you in almost no danger of injury - is more than worth the effort.

This is a great explanation and something that I've been waiting for for years on TB!!

I know from playing bass guitar for 25 years that you don't need strength, but I've never been able to explain it in words, apart from saying that some of the best players I've met are actually quite "weedy" in the flesh - they have never developed their muscles or whatever - but of course this means nothing to most people who haven't met these players!

I think the idea comes from a certain type of music - it's all Flea's fault! Well not just Flea, but there are loads of Metal-type bands you see on MTV, where they appear to be putting huge amounts of effort into playing their instruments (sweating and grunting away) and of course the kids watching this think - ahhh, the reason I am not as good as Flea (or whoever their hero is) is because I have not developed all those muscles!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

I think the idea comes from a certain type of music - it's all Flea's fault! Well not just Flea, but there are loads of Metal-type bands you see on MTV, where they appear to be putting huge amounts of effort into playing their instruments (sweating and grunting away) and of course the kids watching this think - ahhh, the reason I am not as good as Flea (or whoever their hero is) is because I have not developed all those muscles!

Ahhh...

This would explain the preponderance of young folks trying to learn to play by reading tabs and jumping up and down while wearing nothing but Fruit of the Loom "Tidy-Whitey" briefs. I've often wondered about this...

 

[Lovebown]

Well although there I do agree with bruce and chris here I think have read that Stanley Clarke used some things to strengtehn his left hand ( such as squeezing a rubber ball ) and said it helped him a great deal...and I mean he ain't just an ordinary bass player...hmmm...

/lovebown

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Lovebown
Well although there I do agree with bruce and chris here I think have read that Stanley Clarke used some things to strengtehn his left hand ( such as squeezing a rubber ball ) and said it helped him a great deal...and I mean he ain't just an ordinary bass player...hmmm...

/lovebown

I would have thought he would be the last person to need anything like this - in photos and videos I've seen he looks really tall and has very long fingers/hands - plus he tends to play basses with very thin necks - unless we're talking about for Double Bass now?

He is an awesome DB players and his solos on DB are faster than some people on electric! But this started off being about BG - DB is another ball game!

 

[Stingray5]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Ahhh...

This would explain the preponderance of young folks trying to learn to play by reading tabs and jumping up and down while wearing nothing but Fruit of the Loom "Tidy-Whitey" briefs. I've often wondered about this...

I always thought they were called "Tighty whiteys". Am I wearing these things wrong?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Stingray5


I always thought they were called "Tighty whiteys". Am I wearing these things wrong?

Wayull, y'see, down here in the hills of ole Kinf***ky it kin be dang hard to tell what folks is sayin...It may be that yer right about what they's called. On t'other hand, ah'd say that if'n yer wearin' em at all, yer wearin' em wrong.


P.S. - Boah, ye got a reel purty waistband...

 

[Hategear]

Originally posted by Stingray5
I always thought they were called "Tighty whiteys". Am I wearing these things wrong?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
...ah'd say that if'n yer wearin' em at all, yer wearin' em wrong.

I always called 'em "whitey tighties" and it's not wrong to wear 'em -- it gives your boys some support. It's like a hug for your junk.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
There can be a major difference tonally between striking a string hard that has low action and one that has higher action. If you prefer the sound of the higher action... that's a very obvious reason to have it that way.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well no - in fact the basses I have tried with higher action have always sounded worse. Besides, I'm pretty sure you could get the same tone by overdriving the amp or something similar.

While it may be possible, I somehow doubt that you can truly replicate it with amp or an effect for a simple reason... you're not only changing the sound of the bass but also the manner in which it's being played. Then again, maybe a "Facility Attenuator" circuit or pedal is out there somewhere

My view is that people get into bad habits and then rather than change, they adjust their action to suit.

High action is a "bad habit"? Sweet.


But anyway I was very careful to say that "for me" there is no objective reason to have a high action. I can see that if you have played 20-30 years with high action and "digging in" then it is probably easier to raise the action - but I can objectively see no reason whatsoever for me to do this.

Because you have no desire for the results you get with that action. Cool.

Care to address the other points in my post?

What - you mean some people want to put in a lot more effort for no reason whatsoever! HMMM!

[broadassumption on]

Do these tools really cause CT or RSI's? Or is it the high action that causes it? Just curious.

 

[Phil Smith]

For the sake of the ongoing debate about high action, carpel tunnel, RSI and the gripmaster, can we define what high action is? Senor Linfield, what are your action measurements? Additionally, how much beyond you're measurements can you no longer play your instrument effectively and also no longers delivers the sound that pleases your ear.

Side note:

On a double bass, a higher action reduces playability i.e. playing fast, but does give a "bigger" sound.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well Brad is ignoring all my smileys and I thought it was quite clear that I started this off with some "tongue in cheek" remarks.

As I was saying to Chris, I was just lampooning a trend I have noticed amongst the younger generation to take the view that you need to be as "pumped" as say Flea - to play bass properly. So in shops you see them really wacking basses and grunting and straining.

I never measure action as such, but my view is that if it is requiring a lot of effort to hold down strings with your left hand, this is more likely be as a result of too high an action, rather than the fact that you need to embark on a full work-out programme for your fingers!!

I can appreciate that on DB you are having a direct impact on the sound - one of the reasons I haven't taken this up yet - but on BG my view is - why make life hard for yourself ?