The Mediocre Builders Club

[MirandM]

Thanks, I'll look into that.
I had become so focused on trying different materials near the neck and bridge to learn what tones i got from the various materials at the different positions, that i mostly ignored the centrally located PU per P-Bass combined with a bridge PU.
I guess that I just assumed i would learn the most by using the extreme locations. And, I didn't want to copy a P-bass because they are just so plentiful that i had virtually no chance of finding anything new.

As usual, just as I start to think that I understand something, someone here posts something that changes my whole theory. And i end up thinking that i should have known that already. That is why This thread is so valuable. If i was to ask a question like that in the Luthiers Corner, instead of giving me good solid information, i would more likely get written off as a hack and ignored. So, thank you.

I'm sure the relevant info can be found somewhere on LC, but finding it is another question.
I won't go into what they do or would answer, I respect them and leave them be as I expect them to treat us, no sense in starting useless discussions, we've got enough of those all over the world.

Btw, you can't know everything otherwise you wouldn't be here but living in a freaking palace somewhere on a tropical island... mediocre rules.

Have you been looking into winding your own pups? You'd be amazed at what you can achieve doing that, but be prepared for hard study and long hours trying to get what you want.

 

[bass theory]

Have you been looking into winding your own pups? You'd be amazed at what you can achieve doing that, but be prepared for hard study and long hours trying to get what you want.

I actually have looked into it. At this point to invest in the winder would be a waste. I won't start using it for at least a year. but I am quite happy with the wide ranges I have been able to achieve so far with commercially available pups by mixing and matching them strategically.

I have considered winding my own version of hot rail pickups, designed for a bass rather than a six string.
I want to build at least five more floating basses in various formats and scales. Then i want to perfect my version of an arch top semi hollow, including various style bridges. and possibly piezo- electric pickups mounted internally. {light bulb} maybe i can design and build a passive or even active hand wound pickup for internal mounting in a semi-hollow. Think of it... a bass with f-holes and three control pot (blend, tone, vol) but no visible pickups. they would be underneath catching the vibrations of the tone-wood rather than the strings directly.

I bet i could make it work. someday i'll find out.
my greatest strength as a builder is that I'm not afraid to try anything no matter how crazy.... especially the crazy ideas. And every now and then they actually work

 

[MirandM]

I actually have looked into it. At this point to invest in the winder would be a waste. ...

Just a suggestion for when the time comes, don't invest in a commercial winder, there are some pretty nice inventions diy made from sewing machines on the internet to be found. Not too difficult to make and certainly worth the small price.

 

[bass theory]

Just a suggestion for when the time comes, don't invest in a commercial winder, there are some pretty nice inventions diy made from sewing machines on the internet to be found. Not too difficult to make and certainly worth the small price.

I have seen many commercially available winders for $80 to $150. they just don't have digital counters.
the fully automatic ones with counters start around $500. but can go up into the thousands.

 

[MirandM]

I have seen many commercially available winders for $80 to $150. they just don't have digital counters.
the fully automatic ones with counters start around $500. but can go up into the thousands.

Therefore my suggestion, within the diy solutions there are some pretty nifty ones with digital counters for under $60, you won't believe what people invent...

 

[bass theory]

I am a bit embarrassed to post this, but I'll do it anyway.
I have now been hanging around at a custom guitar shop for about 7 to 9 months now, and really focusing on improving my work to the standards which the other builders who sell through there. And let me tell you their standards are very high.

I went into a guitar center today for the first time in about 4 years. I went slowly through the store checking out every guitar, every bass, even the drums. my jaw was very close to actually dragging. There were instruments priced up to $1300. After spending all that time working hard to eliminate every flaw from my work, and studying the work of masters, these factory-made instruments, even the top-of-the-line Fenders and Stingrays seem like cheap garbage.

I went in there expecting to drool over the basses I hear about all the time, and always gassed for. The drop off in quality from the master works i have been hanging around lately floored me. Even my work now is visibly better quality than the best basses at Guitar center. and i am definately the weakest link in the custom shop.

There were oil rubbed instruments which obviously only had 1 or 2 coats of oil. they didn't have the shine that oil is known for. there were burst finishes which look like they were done as quickly and thinly as possible. I would not even consider an oil job now that is less than 6 good heavy coats, rubbed with soft cloth an hour after coating. with 24 hours before recoating. I am no longer embarrassed to put a $2,000 price tag on one of my pieces.

I am embarrassed to say it, But I have become an instrument snob.

 

[markwrob]

Rainman/ "Definitely not 1109. Definitely 1110! 1110! Definitely!" /Rainman

 

[bass theory]

Rainman/ "Definitely not 1109. Definitely 1110! 1110! Definitely!" /Rainman

10 minutes to Whopner.

 

[bass theory]

Rainman/ "Definitely not 1109. Definitely 1110! 1110! Definitely!" /Rainman

i'm serious.
I feel like a kid whose super-hero was just exposed as a mere mortal. and not all that impressive a mortal.

they had 3 ESP LTD B-206SM basses. 2 new and 1 used. I swear my copy of the ESP is actually nicer than the originals. and i found it interesting that the used one had the original pickups replaced with the same EMG pickups and electronics which I used in my copy.

 

[jefff100]

Therefore my suggestion, within the diy solutions there are some pretty nifty ones with digital counters for under $60, you won't believe what people invent...

with some rudimentary electronics skill & a soldering iron you could devise your own counter on a homemade winder for very little cost. Probably less than 40-50 dollars.

 

[versalog]

…you could devise your own counter on a homemade winder for very little cost.

I wonder if there’s such a thing as a thing that displayed DC resistance while winding?

 

[versalog]

I am embarrassed to say it, But I have become an instrument snob.

@bass theory, what has happened? You have gone from firewood basses to instrument snob in a short while. Have you been building more instruments?

 

[Jon Clegg]

I wonder if there’s such a thing as a thing that displayed DC resistance while winding?

DCR is related to the gauge of the wire (which gives you ohms/meter) and the length of the wire. You can estimate the length of the wire from the dimensions of the coil form and the number of turns -- if you wanted to get closer you'd alter the dimensions as you add layers of wire but I don't think the difference would be that great. Problem with measuring DCR would be that you need connections to the wire as you're winding which would mean getting through the insulation as you're winding it; you'd probably just end up creating a bunch of shorts.

 

[Jon Clegg]

I am a bit embarrassed to post this, but I'll do it anyway.
I have now been hanging around at a custom guitar shop for about 7 to 9 months now, and really focusing on improving my work to the standards which the other builders who sell through there. And let me tell you their standards are very high.

I went into a guitar center today for the first time in about 4 years. I went slowly through the store checking out every guitar, every bass, even the drums. my jaw was very close to actually dragging. There were instruments priced up to $1300. After spending all that time working hard to eliminate every flaw from my work, and studying the work of masters, these factory-made instruments, even the top-of-the-line Fenders and Stingrays seem like cheap garbage.

I went in there expecting to drool over the basses I hear about all the time, and always gassed for. The drop off in quality from the master works i have been hanging around lately floored me. Even my work now is visibly better quality than the best basses at Guitar center. and i am definately the weakest link in the custom shop.

There were oil rubbed instruments which obviously only had 1 or 2 coats of oil. they didn't have the shine that oil is known for. there were burst finishes which look like they were done as quickly and thinly as possible. I would not even consider an oil job now that is less than 6 good heavy coats, rubbed with soft cloth an hour after coating. with 24 hours before recoating. I am no longer embarrassed to put a $2,000 price tag on one of my pieces.

I am embarrassed to say it, But I have become an instrument snob.

The curse of becoming a builder. 2K? You're undervaluing your work. I priced my first commission build at roughly the same price as a factory built bass -- mistake. With what you're doing, and as unique as your basses are, you should be able to charge more. The 7-string I'm currently building is priced a bit higher; when I quoted the price to the customer, he said it was about a grand less than he expected.

 

[bass theory]

I wonder if there’s such a thing as a thing that displayed DC resistance while winding?

yes, a multimeter could be set up for that purpose.

 

[bass theory]

@bass theory, what has happened? You have gone from firewood basses to instrument snob in a short while. Have you been building more instruments?

I have made probably a bass body every week or so for many months now. Most of them were not up to the standards set in the custom shop so i destroyed or cut them up for parts before investing in electronics. so i woul guess that in the past three months i made 8 or 9 semi-hollow bodies, 4 or 5 necks, and about 8 wooden pickguards. The net out of all of that is one build that i completed and is now for sale. and I am ready to build more. Does that mean that i will complete 1 bass for every three months of work? No. i have learned so much so quickly. i will probably average 1 scrap body or pickguard for each instrument i make, but not eight or nine.

There is no way i would have progressed without the help of those of you here advising me, and going into that shop every time i think i have a good (even great) piece, then look around and compare my work to the others, only to end up rejecting what I had thought was a great piece just hours before. and i scrap it out. I always save the electronics and usually the neck.

The shop is run by a builder who does great work. But he has pieces from some 3 or 4 other builders for sale. They all do great work. The first piece i took there hoping it would be sellable, his response was "sure I'll sell that for you. but i wouldn't sell it for more than $200." i had about $700 invested into it at the time, so you can imagine my disappointment. I made him go over the entire piece pointing out all of what he considered shortcomings that devalued the work. i would go home and focus on improving all that he found till i thought I had it.
I did this several times, thinking this is it, only to have him tear my work to pieces verbally. then eventually my eye got trained enough to find the flaws myself, while building the instrument. during all this time i don't think i ever looked at a factory built instrument. That made the work of these other builders the only standard i had for grading. So yes i progressed quickly, but during that time i built the equivalent of nearly ten guitars which were, in the end, firewood. My woodworking skills, in effect went from being a framing carpenter to a highly skill cabinetmaker. But not just like i tried one and failed but on the second try it was perfect. i have built many basses with nothing to show for my effort except the skills i learned. i haven't posted them all here, but why would i? i have posted several that eventually got scrapped. because they were learning experiences. the original floating top bass is one. The wagon-wheel bass is another. My first hollow bass is another.

I have not made that transition without work, and many failures. and to be honest, if i was comparing my work to factory basses i would have been satisfied long ago, and never developed the skill that i did. I got here by using the work of artists as the baseline standard. and pushing myself hard.
But i still have a lot to learn. and that is the main reason I am here.

 

[bass theory]

DCR is related to the gauge of the wire (which gives you ohms/meter) and the length of the wire. You can estimate the length of the wire from the dimensions of the coil form and the number of turns -- if you wanted to get closer you'd alter the dimensions as you add layers of wire but I don't think the difference would be that great. Problem with measuring DCR would be that you need connections to the wire as you're winding which would mean getting through the insulation as you're winding it; you'd probably just end up creating a bunch of shorts.

all true and good points. That's why I am not yet ready to wind my own pickups. i need to do a lot of studying first.

 

[bass theory]

The curse of becoming a builder. 2K? You're undervaluing your work. I priced my first commission build at roughly the same price as a factory built bass -- mistake. With what you're doing, and as unique as your basses are, you should be able to charge more. The 7-string I'm currently building is priced a bit higher; when I quoted the price to the customer, he said it was about a grand less than he expected.

Wow! Thank you, a million times thank you.
I only wish you had seen and played some of my work so i could trust your assessment more. I worry that what i am able to post here tells an accurate story of what i am doing. I will say that my efforts are definately first rate. But i have very little idea what to charge.

 

[Jon Clegg]

Wow! Thank you, a million times thank you.
I only wish you had seen and played some of my work so i could trust your assessment more. I worry that what i am able to post here tells an accurate story of what i am doing. I will say that my efforts are definately first rate. But i have very little idea what to charge.

It's difficult, I know. I start with cost of material, then make my best guess on the hours of labor. How you value your time is up to you. I really need to do a better job of keeping track of hours actually spent TBH; I'm probably still under valuing.

 

[bass theory]

It's difficult, I know. I start with cost of material, then make my best guess on the hours of labor. How you value your time is up to you. I really need to do a better job of keeping track of hours actually spent TBH; I'm probably still under valuing.

It sounds like you are way ahead of me. And been doing all of this for a long time. Now I am a bit embarrassed thinking i'm sure that i have said many things that to a pro sound arrogant. it is mostly because i get excited about the things i am learning and that i can actually see the differences they make.