The Mediocre Builders Club

[Jon Clegg]

It sounds like you are way ahead of me. And been doing all of this for a long time. Now I am a bit embarrassed thinking i'm sure that i have said many things that to a pro sound arrogant. it is mostly because i get excited about the things i am learning and that i can actually see the differences they make.

I wouldn't call myself a pro. I have built a few; currently on my 9th bass build and a 7-string.

 

[MirandM]

I wonder if there’s such a thing as a thing that displayed DC resistance while winding?

DCR is related to the gauge of the wire (which gives you ohms/meter) and the length of the wire. You can estimate the length of the wire from the dimensions of the coil form and the number of turns -- if you wanted to get closer you'd alter the dimensions as you add layers of wire but I don't think the difference would be that great. Problem with measuring DCR would be that you need connections to the wire as you're winding which would mean getting through the insulation as you're winding it; you'd probably just end up creating a bunch of shorts.

yes, a multimeter could be set up for that purpose.

As Jon Clegg correctly commented, you won't be able to measure the resistance during winding. Why? Simply because the copper wire is enameled wire, meaning insulated with a coating which can only be removed by scraping or burning it. That's why they use this type of wire, the enamel coating is very thin so doesn't occupy much space, the same wires, although much thinner, are used in speaker spools. It's also heat resistant, up to a high temperature of over 250ºC
So no multimeter would cut the job.
The only way to get that data would be to use a length meter instead of nr of turns. Using the manufacturers data on the specific wire (ohms/meter) you could calculate the resistance approximately.

 

[MirandM]

As Jon Clegg correctly commented, you won't be able to measure the resistance during winding. Why? Simply because the copper wire is enameled wire, meaning insulated with a coating which can only be removed by scraping or burning it. That's why they use this type of wire, the enamel coating is very thin so doesn't occupy much space, the same wires, although much thinner, are used in speaker spools. It's also heat resistant, up to a high temperature of over 250ºC
So no multimeter would cut the job.
The only way to get that data would be to use a length meter instead of nr of turns. Using the manufacturers data on the specific wire (ohms/meter) you could calculate the resistance approximately.

btw, resistance is one thing which doesn't necessarily mean higher output, induction is another. Read up on this at the warman pickup site https://www.warmanguitars.co.uk/

 

[MirandM]

DCR is related to the gauge of the wire (which gives you ohms/meter) and the length of the wire. You can estimate the length of the wire from the dimensions of the coil form and the number of turns -- if you wanted to get closer you'd alter the dimensions as you add layers of wire but I don't think the difference would be that great....

Close, but there's another form of winding which is called scatter winding, basically this means the wire may go for left to right or right to left or anywhere in between (hence the "scatter") in just one turn, thus you can't know the exact or aproxímate length involved unless you use a length meter instead of a turns meter.

 

[MirandM]

...The shop is run by a builder who does great work. But he has pieces from some 3 or 4 other builders for sale. They all do great work. The first piece i took there hoping it would be sellable, his response was "sure I'll sell that for you. but i wouldn't sell it for more than $200." i had about $700 invested into it at the time, so you can imagine my disappointment. I made him go over the entire piece pointing out all of what he considered shortcomings that devalued the work. i would go home and focus on improving all that he found till i thought I had it.
...

A builder that sells work from others is a reseller, and as such will ALWAYS pay a lower price to the original builder than the final client, he also wants to make a profit and will prefer to go as low as possible to pay to the original builder.
If you want to make a profit, sell your stuff directly to the final clients.

 

[markwrob]

Not that I have any business chiming in, but I'll go ahead:
While I agree with MirandM about the endgame of selling one's work, BassTheory has learned a great deal working with the other builder. So theres a benefit to that, at least during startup. And the other builder's contacts have much value to someone starting out.
If BassTheory goes solo a little farther down the line rather than being 'just' a sideman, it could be a win-win-win.

ETA: Any chance BT or JC have any pics of their latest creations? (I understand if forum rules prevent that.)

 

[Jon Clegg]

These are my builds in mostly chronological order. Most of these have build threads in the LC. The white bass belongs before it's kinda twin with the whammy bar.

 

[RodRy]

Not that I have any business chiming in, but I'll go ahead:
While I agree with MirandM about the endgame of selling one's work, BassTheory has learned a great deal working with the other builder. So theres a benefit to that, at least during startup. And the other builder's contacts have much value to someone starting out.
If BassTheory goes solo a little farther down the line rather than being 'just' a sideman, it could be a win-win-win.

ETA: Any chance BT or JC have any pics of their latest creations? (I understand if forum rules prevent that.)

Is there a reason why BT cannot sell both to the shop on consignment and direct to potential buyers?

 

[Jon Clegg]

Is there a reason why BT cannot sell both to the shop on consignment and direct to potential buyers?

It would largely depend on his arrangement with the shop. If a buyer were to contact him directly, should be no problem absent any kind of exclusivity deal.

 

[bass theory]

A builder that sells work from others is a reseller, and as such will ALWAYS pay a lower price to the original builder than the final client, he also wants to make a profit and will prefer to go as low as possible to pay to the original builder.
If you want to make a profit, sell your stuff directly to the final clients.

Actually he takes the work of others on consignment. The builder sets the price and he marks that up 20% to 25% to get the final selling price. he pays nothing until the piece is sold. then he pays the agreed to price to the builder. A builder can have as many pieces in the store as they want, within space limitations. but must agree to build a custom piece within a reasonable time when there is a customer request.
Like a customer wanting Seymour-Duncan Pickups instead of EMG. or a specific body wood substitution, or perhaps a tobacco burst finish (although almost all of the instruments he sells have natural finishes. Even battery compartments are hidden by well fitted wood covers that match the bodies rather than a plastic battery case showing. there are no plastic nuts here, and very rarely a plastic pickguard,) These are the things that prompt me say that there is a big difference in quality between these instruments and factory made instruments. and while 180 grit sandpaper is considered fine sanding on factory instruments, we always sand to 400 grit or higher. This reputation for quality gives him incentive to sell at a higher price. And to help me develop. The more good builders he gets the more he can grow the business.
The reasons he said he wouldn't sell it for more than $200 were:

• He has a reputation. and thought the quality was not up to that. it wasn't.
• He was trying to get me to realize that almost good is as bad as terrible. In custom work everything must be virtually perfect. he also saw that while i had flaws, there were other things that i did quite well. He is especially impressed with my many unique and beautiful designs. So it was motivation for me to push the envelope.
• He has limited space for guitars. He wants the best stuff he can get to fill the space. I do have an advantage here though in that all the other builders focus on 6-string guitars. They prefer to not work on basses.

In truth he would have taken the piece at whatever price i wanted, but he didn't think anyone would want it at more than a factory guitar cost because there were flaws.
He also offered to teach me anything i need help with. And, in fact he is who taught me to shape a neck using only hand tools, primarily planes and files. and he taught me how to do inlays, and how to cut the nut grooves for the lowest possible setup without fret buzz, and why the neck scarfing is 17degrees rather than 15. I am virtually an apprentice there.

No, He is not a "reseller"! Since he works on a percentage it is in his best interest for me to be as good as the others who sell through his shop.
Members of this group often enter their work in various shows and competitions, and this is all good advertising for the whole group.

With this way of doing business everyone benefits by every one else being the best they can be. And i have a distinct advantage in that I am the only one who prefers to build basses. the others would be glad to have me build enough basses that they don't need to bother with them. Also bass components cost more than the standard guitar equivalents, so as i progress, my work could become the most expensive items in the store.
But i needed to improve to their level, fast! and they are helping me do that.

 

[bass theory]

These are my builds in mostly chronological order. Most of these have build threads in the LC. The white bass belongs before it's kinda twin with the whammy bar.
View attachment 4541287

You do beautiful work.
The three on the left are in a similar style to what the other builders at the shop are doing, only not in basses.

 

[bass theory]

It would largely depend on his arrangement with the shop. If a buyer were to contact him directly, should be no problem absent any kind of exclusivity deal.

At this point, I would offer a small comision probably 15% or at least 20% if the contact was known to have come through the shop, even if i sold one directly. Because, I wouldn't have the contact without the shop. And so it is in my best interest to support the shop.
Also, I am doing this because i love doing it, not to get rich.

 

[mrperkolator]

I'm loving this thread. I'm currently trying to refinish an old yamaha fretless. Luthier's corner made it look easy..... Now I may have firewood. Not sure.

Another note.... Anyone have a good source for good necks that are shorter than 34"? I may start planning a future build....

 

[bass theory]

It all depends on what the original finish was and what finish you want to end up with. If your fretless fretboard was rosewood, it likely had an oil finish and that is simple to refinish if you had a burst finish it was probably lacquer, then you are in for some serious work. If it is polyurethane, lots of sanding, but a refinish usually works out well. it is possible that the neck, fretboard, and body had different kinds of finishes.

Rules of thumb for finishes. Dark woods are beautiful when finished with tung oil. Lighter woods like oak and maple take polyurethane well. lacquer is good for when you don't want to how the grain.

Burst finishes are popular because the softer woods used for bodies often don't have pretty grain, and a lacquer burst hides that well. in between is a wood I personally love to work with. Cherry. I love Cherry finished with oil. it looks and sounds great.

 

[bass theory]

I have been in private convo with mrperkolator. some of the discussion should probably be shared here because it is the types of questions we all need to work through as we are learning. This is part of a discussion about contracting a builder to make just the neck. I hope it helps you new builders who are not yet ready to try making the necks.


bass theory i know a few builders who love making necks, and do beautiful work. they especially like working with unusual wood combinations. But be aware.... you will pay at least $300 (plus shipping) and maybe much more.
bass theory and you will need to specify all the dimensions and the radiuses. so unless you know exactly what you want it would be frustrating.
On the plus side you will learn a LOT about necks by going through the process of negotiating a neck design with a skilled builder.
Invalid Link Removed believe it or not, some of the best neck builders use a router to cut the truss rod slot, and all other work is crafted by hand using files and palm planes.

 

[mrperkolator]

I have been in private convo with mrperkolator. some of the discussion should probably be shared here because it is the types of questions we all need to work through as we are learning. This is part of a discussion about contracting a builder to make just the neck. I hope it helps you new builders who are not yet ready to try making the necks.


bass theory i know a few builders who love making necks, and do beautiful work. they especially like working with unusual wood combinations. But be aware.... you will pay at least $300 (plus shipping) and maybe much more.
bass theory and you will need to specify all the dimensions and the radiuses. so unless you know exactly what you want it would be frustrating.
On the plus side you will learn a LOT about necks by going through the process of negotiating a neck design with a skilled builder.
Invalid Link Removed believe it or not, some of the best neck builders use a router to cut the truss rod slot, and all other work is crafted by hand using files and palm planes.

For those wondering my half.... I understand time/skill/tool constraints. It would actually be cheaper in the long run to order the neck (outsource) than to take waaay too long (wife hates long projects), mess up too much, and buy lots of tools. Time is biggest factor. I've been trying to refinish a bass since mid december.... it's not going well.

I have a psycological issue with refinishing. It had value, now it doesnt. Making new.... it has minimal value (just raw materials) and then becomes something. Somehow easier to swallow the second. messing up my fretless is rather annoying. perhaps I'll get it finished one day....

 

[bass theory]

For those wondering my half.... I understand time/skill/tool constraints. It would actually be cheaper in the long run to order the neck (outsource) than to take waaay too long (wife hates long projects), mess up too much, and buy lots of tools. Time is biggest factor. I've been trying to refinish a bass since mid december.... it's not going well.

I have a psycological issue with refinishing. It had value, now it doesnt. Making new.... it has minimal value (just raw materials) and then becomes something. Somehow easier to swallow the second. messing up my fretless is rather annoying. perhaps I'll get it finished one day....

Building a bass is an awesome experience. Just ask an abundance of questions when you are not sure about a decision. people here offering advice is how i developed my best designs. And be prepared for things to go sideways a time or two. They definately will. There is no better teacher than experience but even the failures are are an awesome experience. The only thing i would guard against is... don't build a bass thinking it will be cheaper than buying. it won't even come close. but I think it is worth every penny, and i am not wealthy enough to not feel the costs.

MirandM is an expert at restoring and rebuilding. not to mention being an electronics engineer. and she loves answering questions.

 

[RodRy]

I have been in private convo with mrperkolator. some of the discussion should probably be shared here because it is the types of questions we all need to work through as we are learning. This is part of a discussion about contracting a builder to make just the neck. I hope it helps you new builders who are not yet ready to try making the necks.


bass theory i know a few builders who love making necks, and do beautiful work. they especially like working with unusual wood combinations. But be aware.... you will pay at least $300 (plus shipping) and maybe much more.
bass theory and you will need to specify all the dimensions and the radiuses. so unless you know exactly what you want it would be frustrating.
On the plus side you will learn a LOT about necks by going through the process of negotiating a neck design with a skilled builder.
Invalid Link Removed believe it or not, some of the best neck builders use a router to cut the truss rod slot, and all other work is crafted by hand using files and palm planes.

Fascinating. I've been thinking of building my own bass for some years, and I realized that if I buy a neck, I can focus on getting the body exactly the way I want it. Any way you can put me in touch with some of the builders who really like to work on necks? I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm good with the numbers side, and an industrial designer by my degree, so I tend to focus on design pretty heavily.

 

[Jon Clegg]

You do beautiful work.
The three on the left are in a similar style to what the other builders at the shop are doing, only not in basses.

Thanks!

For those wondering my half.... I understand time/skill/tool constraints. It would actually be cheaper in the long run to order the neck (outsource) than to take waaay too long (wife hates long projects), mess up too much, and buy lots of tools. Time is biggest factor. I've been trying to refinish a bass since mid december.... it's not going well.

I have a psycological issue with refinishing. It had value, now it doesnt. Making new.... it has minimal value (just raw materials) and then becomes something. Somehow easier to swallow the second. messing up my fretless is rather annoying. perhaps I'll get it finished one day....

I built my first one using a Carvin... err... Kiesel neck back when they still sold them. As for tools, a good router, a band saw or a jig saw, and some files and rasps will largely get you started. A drill press is handy too, but not essential. A couple of my earliest projects were refinishing old beaters I'd picked up -- very satisfying to take something that looks like and make it look nice.

 

[MirandM]

Building a bass is an awesome experience. Just ask an abundance of questions when you are not sure about a decision. people here offering advice is how i developed my best designs. And be prepared for things to go sideways a time or two. They definately will. There is no better teacher than experience but even the failures are are an awesome experience. The only thing i would guard against is... don't build a bass thinking it will be cheaper than buying. it won't even come close. but I think it is worth every penny, and i am not wealthy enough to not feel the costs.
...

Absolutely true.

...
MirandM is an expert at restoring and rebuilding. not to mention being an electronics engineer. and she loves answering questions.

Absolutely not true, I'm just mediocre. My expertise is being mediocre
I do a lot of things, not just basses, replace a car engine? yeah ok..., retile your roof? That's fine.., want a tattoo? I can do that... Want it removed? That too... Got an slr camera that doesn't fire, or a lens with fungus? Be my guest... Your trouser are too long? I'll shorten them... Need a still life painting of a vase with flowers? No problem... etc etc.
Today I mounted a roof gutter at 7m height, complete with two drain pipes. Still need to make a complete bathroom...
Oh, and I play bass too, somtimes when I have time left...