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The modes are dangerous black magic!
- Thread starter John Metta
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- improvising modes
I got to the Rich Brown video via youtube.
Good stuff. To summarize some key substitutions,
If your base is DORIAN; and you use a common root:
Ionian tension points are nat 3 and maj 7
Phrygian tension points are b9,b13
Lydian tension points are nat 3, #11, maj 7
Mixolydian ....nat 3
Aeolian ..... b13
Locrian ..... b9, #11, b13
IF your base is MIXOLYDIAN,
Ionian .....maj 7
Dorian...... b3
Phrygian.....b9,b3,b13
Lydian #11, maj 7
Aeolian.... b3, b13
Locrian.... b9, b3,#11, b13
The great saxophonist Michael Brecker used this a lot, as i figured out a few months back. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet with numerous tension point tables , both major diatonic, melodic minor and cross scale. Gotta find that.
I figured this out about 1 1/2 years ago and was going to post it , but the precursor thread about thinking the fretboard in terms of diatonic mode caught so much crap, i buried this.
Good stuff. To summarize some key substitutions,
If your base is DORIAN; and you use a common root:
Ionian tension points are nat 3 and maj 7
Phrygian tension points are b9,b13
Lydian tension points are nat 3, #11, maj 7
Mixolydian ....nat 3
Aeolian ..... b13
Locrian ..... b9, #11, b13
IF your base is MIXOLYDIAN,
Ionian .....maj 7
Dorian...... b3
Phrygian.....b9,b3,b13
Lydian #11, maj 7
Aeolian.... b3, b13
Locrian.... b9, b3,#11, b13
The great saxophonist Michael Brecker used this a lot, as i figured out a few months back. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet with numerous tension point tables , both major diatonic, melodic minor and cross scale. Gotta find that.
I figured this out about 1 1/2 years ago and was going to post it , but the precursor thread about thinking the fretboard in terms of diatonic mode caught so much crap, i buried this.
Btw, if you think in a single root, the memory work is easier.
If you asked how G phrygian works over E7#9, i cant do that on the fly yet, which is why i memorize subs that work.
The mixolydian over dorian is something i associate with Gambale
If you asked how G phrygian works over E7#9, i cant do that on the fly yet, which is why i memorize subs that work.
The mixolydian over dorian is something i associate with Gambale
I’ll have to seek out the Rich Brown video to see if that helps because I’m having trouble following what we’re saying here @IamGroot
Is it similar to what Rick Beato is saying in this video? I wasn’t sure because you were referring to a single / common root.
Appreciate the input, I’m just trying to wrap my head around this. I’m still shedding the straight diatonic modes at the moment but want to bookmark this for later once my grasp of the fundamentals is firmer.
Is it similar to what Rick Beato is saying in this video? I wasn’t sure because you were referring to a single / common root.
Appreciate the input, I’m just trying to wrap my head around this. I’m still shedding the straight diatonic modes at the moment but want to bookmark this for later once my grasp of the fundamentals is firmer.
This should be a longer post but its 4am and lots to do today.
1) With std. 2 5 1, you play the 2 5 1 as roots and use the correct mode of the parent scale to get those same notes. So D dorian Dm7, G mixolydian G7, and Cma7 for the parent C maj scale.
2) What Rich Brown was doing was holding the root tone constant and changing the scale system, so the notes he got were not diatonic....ie not in the original scale, so the tension points are the notes outside the parent scale. Cool way to get outside..one of many approaches.
Ric Beato is staying inside similar to 1. He is starting with a major scale system , in this case D dorian which is the Ii of the C major scale. For a major scale, only 3 minor pentatonic scales, will fit within the notes of the major scale....minor pentatonic scales which startt on 1,2 and 5 of the dorian mode which is the II chord. Each note of those pentatonic scales hits on different notes of the parent dorian mode, giving a different feel, but all of the notes are inside the parent scale.
I think slightly different than Ric. I think in terms of the 1 chord C maj instead of the 2 dorian chord. So to me, I play minor pentatonics off the 2,3 and 6 of the parent major chord. Same result as Ric. Dmin, Eminor and Aminor pentatonic scales, but i also know immediately that i can play those mnr pentatonic scales over a Cmaj 7 chord or G7 chord (but be careful because Emnr pentatonic has a B so its emphasizing the maj7 over C.
Do 2 things.
For Dmin7 dorian scale, figure out which notes & scale degrees are emphasized by playing those 3 mnr pntc scales.
There is only one minor pentatonic that fits over a melodic minor. Which is it?
So mode substitution breaks down into 2 types:
1 those that fit inside the original scale system emphasizing notes to give a different feel but only moderate increase in tensionv= ric beato
2 playing a mode that has notes outside the parent scale like rich brown which has significantly edgier more tension
From "Jazz Theory I", New England Conservatory by Hiroaki Honshuku.
More about "avoid notes" in modes.
To the OP: I myself do not have formal training, though I have studied under some great musicians and bassists. The biggest challenge for me was to play more interesting lines than R 5th Oct when I first started playing. I eventually figured out where to go but I still was lost. So one day, I stumbled upon a loop station and began to play my own bass lines, improvised chords, etc. I had no idea what I was doing but I slowly began to connect the dots. Then I purchased a book about all the scales and its modes. It's red and has a bunch of scales, their modes and fingering chart in all 12 keys. Greatest purchase ever. At that point, my bass, loop station and this book went with me everywhere. Everything made sense to me, just like you but if you are looking to get it on command, then I recommend this book.
There is. That's something of an intro. There's an entire course on Scott's Bass Lessons. I just forgot that it was a paid service. I bought a lifetime subscription a while back, and just forget that it's a closed site. Sorry about that.
If you look at the upper left corner, you see that it says Dmin.
To me that means some instrument is playing a D min chord. Probably a keyboard along with the bass who is probably playing a line in D minor. The exercise uses the pitch collection from C major, i.e. Fmajor triad, C major triad, G major triad, etc. The harmonic underpinning D min, defines the sound, which, based on the pitch collection overlaying it, makes it Dorian. I've spoken of this ad nauseum. The chords and/or the bassline along with the associated pitch collection defines the sound (the mode), not the notes you play by themselves.
Now's the time for the light-bulb moment. Here's the gag:
There is no "mood" created by single line notes, "IF" it has a preexisting harmonic underpinning. The chords mainly define the sound. Not the notes, exclusively.
The note thing is what everyone around here gets all wrapped around the axle about. The chord thing is what everyone (except for a few) seems to miss.
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We all know that MODES are diatonic; therefore, the C major scale notes would be/could be "good" notes for all those six basic modes - Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc...
The exercise from Frank Gambale's book is to demonstrate (only!) "WHAT notes could I play with D Dorian?".
That exercise does not(!) explain the classical Mode description. That exercise just simple tells you, "Hey, you can play the chord notes from Fmaj, Cmaj, Gmaj chords with D Dorian.
We've had a lot of discussion here at TB about those modes.
In my numerous postings in this thread, I've tried to express my personal opinion why(!) it's "convenient" to know about those Modes.
Frank Gambale's explanation "What other notes could I play with D Dorian" does not answer a question,
"WHY it's convenient to know (something) about MODES?"
All the Gambale's notes are from the C major scale.
Let's say, our TB friend, "mambo4" would say, "You don't need to know MODES, you need to know the SCALES."
OK. So as usual, I have no idea what the point of your question was.
No, you have a very good point in your explanation.
We just simply tend to mix (confuse) two things:
1. What are the MODES,
and
2. What other notes could I play/solo over this/that chord.
Frank's book teaches the second "thing", "What notes could I play with this/that (Dmin(7) chord".
I would totally agree with you, but...
We have George Russell and his "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization".
In most simplified (in most beginning) form, George Russell's concept says,
"Replace C major scale with C Lydian".
With Cmaj(7), play the notes of C Lydian.
Yeah... But that's George Russell. I guess his concepts work, but honestly, nobody does that. Or even pays much attention to it.
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In general, I'm in agreement with this statement. But since you are (or should be) learning to manipulate the scale over the entire neck, using the mode names gives you a point of reference. So to me, mode names are only that. A name to assign to the pitch collection you choose to work on at a given place on the fretboard.
That's, kind of, my point.
It's much easier(faster) to explain that (for instance) with the Cmin7 play
1. C Aeolian/C natural minor
or
2. C Dorian.
since I've been called out
It's true that I used to discourage beginners wasting too much time on modes
Especially if they haven't yet learned how chords and harmonizing the major scale works (see link in my sig)
The question "If the notes are the same, why think about modes at all?" is an important one to find an answer for.
But, when I catch myself arguing for ignorance, I recall Anthony Wellington's words
"Knowing something is better than not knowing something"
So these days I say learn your modes, but don't pretzel your brain over their application.
There is plenty of application to be found in the Major scale itself. Modes are just a facet of it.
