The modes are dangerous black magic!

[IamGroot]

there are many different ways to use the concept of modes. what many people seem to not understand though is the difference between tonal and modal music. modal music is not very popular anymore and hasn't been for a few hundred years. that does not mean modes are not useful in modern music, but i think people misunderstand what ot is they are actually doing.

this is probably the best explanation of how modal and tonal differ.

There are alternate usages for the term "modal" music. In the jazz world, modal music means something very different.

See attached:

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[Whousedtoplay]

There are alternate usages for the term "modal" music. In the jazz world, modal music means something very different.

See attached:

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From the web-site you referred to.
(It's about modality)

• "CAN’T use a dominant chord to establish the tonic (i.e. A7 to Dm)"

In short.
Don't use a dominant chord.

Here is my question.
What if I decide to play (or someone tells me), "We are going to play "something" in a Mixolydian mode, let's say it's G Mixolydian. I would be using that G dom7 chord - a dominant chord.
Could you elaborate it?

 

[IamGroot]

My off the cuff answer sitting in the doctors office is you can use some modes extracted from either the major diatonic or melodic minor to go looking for ideas.

For G7, look to Dm7, Fmaj7, and Bm7b5 quartics which are the 2, 4 and 7 of C Major for ideas.

Getting more interesting, look at G7b9, G7#9, G7#11 , G7#5 and G7 alt, which come out of the melodic minor. G7b9 is the b2 dorian, etc.

This is stuff to play over G7 instead of the mixolydian.

Getting from the Dom7 chord to the next chord in your progression is the trick, depending on your rule book.

Thats my ideas. And please accept my shorthand of using chords instead of the mode as i am typing on my cell and my battery is low.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

sitting in the doctors office

I hope you're OK.

to play over G7 instead of the mixolydian.

But what if I want to play (vamp) just G7/Fmaj7?

 

[IamGroot]

That sounds like all the white keys based on the chords.

F lydian plus G mixolydian = C ionian

F ionian has a Bb which would work with G dorian.

I hope

 

[220_Hz]

I think the most important question has not been adressed yet:

What's the best mode for metal ?

(ducks and runs for cover)

personally I think Phrygian, Lydian, and even Mixolydian are cool for "metally" basslines, but you didn't hear it from me!

 

[John Metta]

I apologize, but the thing is you don't actually seem "excited about learning" to me? If anything, it seems like you are looking for some kind of magic shortcut, to get around actually having to do the hard work of learning songs.

Going back to your first post, you said your wife asked you to jam on a cool song you'd never heard before, and yet you specifically and deliberately chose to learn none of the following things that might have deepened your understanding of this song:

• What's the title of the song?
• Who wrote it?
• What key it is in?
  
• What are the chord changes?
• What scales or modes (if any) does it use? (You think maybe it feels like Locrian, but that seems unlikely.)
• What language are the lyrics are in? And what do they mean?

If I was "excited about learning" then in the 2 weeks since this life-changing musical moment, I would have learned the song backwards and forward, figured out the answers to all of the above questions, and probably even written out my own transcription and harmonic analysis. And of course I'd be jamming on that song with her, daily if possible.

Amazing. I already corrected this misinterpretation once, but I'll do it again, for the kids in back.

So my wife was playing (in the other room, by herself, I might add... but it'll be my fault because "Well you didn't say that" rather than "I should have asked before assuming"). I quietly wanted to see what I could apply- because I was told to see what I could apply (by a professional teacher who knows me, but again, you didn't ask). It was wonderful. Totally different experience. So I thought I'd share it. Dramatically because I'm a writer.

But no, I'm not excited about learning because I "chose" not to follow some specific numbered steps some random internet dweller thinks.

Did you ever ask why I didn't yell into the other room and interrupt her practice to ask her who wrote the song?
How do you know I didn't learn the title 5 minutes later?
How do you know I didn't, in fact, actually gig that song with her?

"The hard work of learning songs?" What rubbish. Learning songs isn't hard work. That's just memorization. That's kids stuff. I don't want to just "learn songs." I want to be able to interpret the melodic underpinning of any song so that I can improvise an appropriate bassline whether I know the song or not. That's the whole point of being able to play music--actually playing music. Not just parroting back memorized songs. Like @Spin Doctor says, "I'm more into designing bridges than running a checkout line."

The arrogance is astounding. I've been playing music for almost 40 years. You have nothing but a (at this point, willful) misinterpretation of a post and a complete lack of knowledge about me, and would assume I have not given you enough evidence to prove that I'm excited about learning. Learn the lyrics and what they mean? Do you think I'm seven? Amazing.

 

[John Metta]

Seek out sources and information from known high level players. You don't necessarily have to put a lot of stock into info from random internet dwellers, unless you can find something that clicks.

Totally.

Teacher: "I think it's a good idea to learn the modes and start seeing how you can apply them in melodic composition and bassline creation."

Random internet dweller: "Don't learn the modes!" "You don't know any foundation!" and "You're just looking for a magic shortcut."

But as far as finding something that clicks, something you wrote very early on is starting to click.

If my guitar player is playing an A minor vamp, and I improvise in the notes of C Ionian, it's not going to sound like Ionian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian, because the guitars harmonic underpinning is defining the sound. If I choose to play higher in the register during that A minor vamp, and play a line based on the G Mixolydian mode (shape, whatever) it's not going to sound Mixolydian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian.

Actually, that whole post. I had to go back and read it twice. The teacher I've been working with said something and it triggered something you wrote:

"That means, being able to manipulate the modes as a pitch collection rather than an entity unto itself. Do I want to play high or low? If I want to play low, I can play Ionian based pitch collection. If I want to play high I can use phrygian or maybe mixolydian pitch collection."


Okay, let me see if I get this clear. I want to stay away from the tritone if I'm playing C Ionian and want to have the C Ionian "mood," because our ear is gonna want to hear that tension and then resolution. But if we do play the tritone, or play with a strong external harmonic underpinning, and if we let it resolve, then we're hearing the sound of A Aeolian. And in that sense it explains why a (non-modal) song I find I actually can play in one mode will fall into a different mode when I move up into third position. It's simply a different collection of roads I'm growing comfortable navigating.

Then it starts making a hell of a lot more sense why learning the modes applies so well to playing behind my wife as she plays non-modal music. Because I'm not playing modes as "moods" but as pitch collections. Without realizing it I'm using them as useful entities unto themselves (guided, of course, but other musical understanding and intuition).

The lack of that perceived utility of "moods" was the main reason I never bothered before. It also starts hinting at why the modes are so useful in bassline (specifically, walking bassline) creation. I can start seeing how having ready access to these defined pitch collections could give you a lot of power in knowing intuitively how to navigate smoothly across chord changes without having to use just memorized R-3-5-c patterns. Your comment about calculus vs adding/subtracting totally makes sense in that context.

Thank you.

 

[IamGroot]

What is the best theory book for metal?

Frank Gambale 's agility video is an excellent workout.

 

[IamGroot]

What is the best theory book for metal?

Frank Gambale 's agility video is an excellent workout.

This book was a pretty good mode based instruction for rock and shredding.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Because I'm not playing modes as "moods" but as pitch collections. Without realizing it I'm using them as useful entities unto themselves (guided, of course, but other musical understanding and intuition).

Don't get me wrong, I've read so many comments about "MOODS" of the MODES in similar threads, but I don't care about it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think Phrygian, Lydian, and even Mixolydian are cool for "metally" basslines

All those modes exist in the very IONIAN mode.
How do you know(!) when you play Phrygian or Lydian mode, instead of that IONIAN?

 

[bassboysam]

All those modes exist in the very IONIAN mode.
How do you know(!) when you play Phrygian or Lydian mode, instead of that IONIAN?

its how you resolve and how you accentuate the characteristic interval(s) of the mode that will make it feel like something other than ionian.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

its how you resolve

You are in the metal band with preset chords.
I doubt that one could have a lot of choices how to resolve those cadences in the bass (as the bass guitar.)

accentuate the characteristic interval(s) of the mode that will make it feel like something other than ionian.

Now, I see a lot of knowledge.

 

[bassboysam]

You are in the metal band with preset chords.
I doubt that one could have a lot of choices how to resolve those cadences in the bass (as the bass guitar.)

You always have a choice .

as an example:


at the 2:57 mark, i am playing in E Phrygian and try to highlight the flat 2 before resolving to E. I personally don't think it sounds like C Ionian.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You always have a choice .

as an example:


at the 2:57 mark, i am playing in E Phrygian and try to highlight the flat 2 before resolving to E. I personally don't think it sounds like C Ionian.

I could not hear ANY C major chords. I'm not into metal. (maybe, even "more" than not into metal).
I heard clear Bb tonic.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Today, Guitar Pro offered us "Cocaine" by E. Clapton.
Here are the chords (simplified).

Here is the melody.

Here is the bass line of the same few measures.

What MODE is Clapton in?

E Mixolydian?

But what about that C major chord?

Is it D Mixolydian?

 

[bassboysam]

I could not hear ANY C major chords. I'm not into metal. (maybe, even "more" than not into metal).
I heard clear Bb tonic.

sorry i forgot we tune down 1 1/2 steps for that. the quieter part resolves to C#. i did not say there were any C major chords.

i guess i misunderstood what you were saying. all i am trying to convey is that the bass line doesn't sound like A major/ionian even though all the notes are from A major.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

all i am trying to convey is that the bass line doesn't sound like A major/ionian even though all the notes are from A major.

If I lower by 1 step, I have the following notes starting at 2:54.
(ascending) B - E - G and (descending) F# - D# to (modulation) C natural - (ascending) Eb and (repeat) C natural - Eb.

 

[IamGroot]

This book was a pretty good mode based instruction for rock and shredding.

View attachment 3617333

On that Gambale book, it would answer a lot of questions being asked in a very practical format. If you read treble clef and guitar tab, check it out.