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The modes are dangerous black magic!

#101
John Metta said:
Well, this has been fun. The back and forth over what they mean is interesting, but it's really really surprising to me that people would argue I shouldn't learn the modes or that I don't know what I'm talking about. The former is at best questionable, the later is utterly inexplicable.
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To your "utterly inexplicable" comment: Your original post definitely gave the impression you are new to studying music theory in general, and modes specifically. You made comments along the lines of, you don't know how to determine the key of a song, and you don't know the difference between Lydian and Locrian. Apologies if I have misinterpreted your skill set. Perhaps your tone was intended to be self-deprecating humor and I took it too literally.
 
#102
Mushroo said:
Apologies if I have misinterpreted your skill set.
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That was directed not at you, but a comment that I didn't know what the modes were or when to use them. I don't understand the benefit of responding to someone who says "I've decided to learn this" by saying "You don't know anything about that." It's inexplicable because the entire point of learning is the admission that you don't know anything about something, which is why you go on the journey to learn about it.
 
#103
John Metta said:
That was directed not at you, but a comment that I didn't know what the modes were or when to use them. I don't understand the benefit of responding to someone who says "I've decided to learn this" by saying "You don't know anything about that." It's inexplicable because the entire point of learning is the admission that you don't know anything about something, which is why you go on the journey to learn about it.
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I agree with the earlier posters, who suggested (some more politely than others) that you aren't ready to study "modes" yet. You mentioned that you can't figure out the key of a song on your own; you need your wife to tell you. If you were my student (which I fully acknowledge you are not) we'd master that skill first, before we worried about modes.

I'm obviously at a loss, because I don't know what song you were trying to play in the OP. But I suspect it's probably in a major key (not a "modal" composition at all) and that you are leading yourself down a wrong path by studying these concepts out of order. Your "dangerous black magic" comment was a red flag that suggests to me you're in over your head.

It's fashionable to say "the student is always right and should be encouraged to cherry-pick their lessons according to interest" but I guess I'm old school: give me an experienced teacher with a time-tested syllabus that has led to success for other students, and let's work through those concepts in order. I hope that doesn't come across as condescending or discouraging?
 
#104
Cherry pick lessons? What are we talking about?

My very first sentence:

"I've been playing music for decades, multiple instruments, multiple genres/styles, I've somehow never gotten around to learning the modes."

Salient statement:

"My wife was practicing a song I'd never heard of. I didn't know the key and usually I would have her print out or tell me the key and/or chord chart."

My father was a Philly session bassist for everyone from Miles Davis to Lionel Hampton. Even he asked what key a song was in and almost always used a chord chart or lead sheet. I never realized asking for a lead sheet was a trigger.

 
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#106
Spin Doctor said:
No.

Nobody told me this as I just sort of figured it out based on my lessons and other experience, but the modern use of modes is simply to have a place to put your hands when you improvise or play a line. That means, being able to manipulate the modes as a pitch collection rather than an entity unto itself. Do I want to play high or low? If I want to play low, I can play Ionian based pitch collection. If I want to play high I can use phrygian or maybe mixolydian pitch collection.

I can do this, because in modern usage, it's not the modal shape that determines the sound of a line. It's the harmonic underpinning that determines the sound. Gregorian Music had no harmonic underpinning, because chords didn't exist at that time. So those modes DID create a "mood".

If my guitar player is playing an A minor vamp, and I improvise in the notes of C Ionian, it's not going to sound like Ionian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian, because the guitars harmonic underpinning is defining the sound. If I choose to play higher in the register during that A minor vamp, and play a line based on the G Mixolydian mode (shape, whatever) it's not going to sound Mixolydian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian.

Well, why is that? Where is the mood? There's no mood, because all of the modes are all the exact same notes... How can C Ionian sound different than G Mixolydian, if they are all the same notes? I'm not creating a mood, I'm just playing a line over a certain harmonic structure. I can play any mode I want, and that structure will remain constant. Playing over a structure is the modern use of modes.

Incidental, what I'm talking about is not about playing G Mixolydian over G7 chords or that stuff. It's about doing what you want in a musical way.

There are certain kinds of chords that can create a "Mood" based on the way they are voiced and the extensions they contain, but that's a different application than plain vanilla diatonic modes. This is where you get into Harmonic and Melodic minor scales. That's a whole different topic.

If you transcribe a Jimmy Haslip solo, which I've done several, you will see that what he plays, is based almost exclusively on diatonic modal shapes determined simply by what he wants to hear at the time and in whatever register he wants to play in. The entire concept is really incredibly simple. It's just muddied up.

Also, I'm at a stage where I can make my own determinations about how I get "inside" music. It's probably a little different than someone else's way of doing things. I have a very long way to go, but I think I can see the road ahead.
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Well put. This is exactly how I want to describe it ;-)
 
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#107
Groove Master said:
Well put. This is exactly how I want to describe it ;-)
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Thank you. It's pretty challenging trying to explain how I think about this stuff on talk-bass, but that explanation process has the advantage of solidifying what I truly think is correct as opposed to how I feel it should be, or just randomly buying into what somebody else says. If that makes any sense.

Apparently, how I think about it runs completely counter to how everyone else thinks about it. Except you, I guess. Actually, I'm glad that's the case.

I really dig your Groove 101 book by the way. It's really helped with my timing. I didn't realize you had two others out also.
 
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#108
John Metta said:
Cherry pick lessons? What are we talking about?

My very first sentence:

"I've been playing music for decades, multiple instruments, multiple genres/styles, I've somehow never gotten around to learning the modes."

Salient statement:

"My wife was practicing a song I'd never heard of. I didn't know the key and usually I would have her print out or tell me the key and/or chord chart."

My father was a Philly session bassist for everyone from Miles Davis to Lionel Hampton. Even he asked what key a song was in and almost always used a chord chart or lead sheet. I never realized asking for a lead sheet was a trigger.

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This is one of my all time favorite records. I've had this on vinyl since it was new and just played it maybe last week. What's the significance of your posting this?
 
#111
Spin Doctor said:
I was just wondering if your Dad or somebody played on it... That's all. Just a casual conversation...
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I wish. He was out of the music scene by then. He had to leave music to leave the drugs, sadly.

I'm done with mode talk too, honestly, but I will literally talk about that album all day. Those first solo Sting albums were my everything. I mean, sure, ALL Sting albums are great, but as a high school freshman, Dream of The Blue Turtles was my first REAL experience of Jazz blending with Rock/Pop. I mean, yeah, there was fusion and such yada yada. But my life was always me listening and playing Punk while my dad was listening to Jazz, and those two genres might as well been on the other side of the known universe in our house. Then Sting comes out with a solo album and...there was that camera shift. I still remember my first thought was something like "Sting is probably moving even further away from the Police's early Punk influences. Screw that." But then I heard it and it took like three times to even figure out what the hell was happening to me. Then my father caught me listening to it and we sat there together talking about it. It was a moment.
 
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#112
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#113
John Metta said:
I wish. He was out of the music scene by then. He had to leave music to leave the drugs, sadly.

I'm done with mode talk too, honestly, but I will literally talk about that album all day. Those first solo Sting albums were my everything. I mean, sure, ALL Sting albums are great, but as a high school freshman, Dream of The Blue Turtles was my first REAL experience of Jazz blending with Rock/Pop. I mean, yeah, there was fusion and such yada yada. But my life was always me listening and playing Punk while my dad was listening to Jazz, and those two genres might as well been on the other side of the known universe in our house. Then Sting comes out with a solo album and...there was that camera shift. I still remember my first thought was something like "Sting is probably moving even further away from the Police's early Punk influences. Screw that." But then I heard it and it took like three times to even figure out what the hell was happening to me. Then my father caught me listening to it and we sat there together talking about it. It was a moment.
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"Nothing like the Sun" was a sort of watershed record for me. Bradford's solo on Little Wing, man it's just crazy good, and how he came in just perfectly after Hiram's solo.. That album has all the best players at the time on it.
 
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#115
John Metta said:
I got that from Anthony Wellington's video. He went into the pattern of the modes on the bass and it really clicked for me. He showed how all modes are part of the repeating pattern going from the lowest register string to the highest (he demonstrated on a 7 string bass).

W - W : Mixolydian (W is "whole step.")
W - W : Ionian
W - W : Lydian
12-4 : Locrian (Numbers are frets, referenced from one fret higher than last W-W start)
12-4 : Phrygian
1-34 : Aolian
1-34 : Dorian

If you have two W-W patterns and jump to 12-4, you can really only go to 12-4, and then 1-34. If you start there, that's Ionian. So MILLPAD is his way of remembering that pattern. It's not ordered the same way because he's going by frets and strings, so each is, like our strings, a fifth. But it made more sense to me that way. The I-D-P-Ly.. ordering didn't have that same logical pattern in relation to the bass.

I still need to remember what number each is, but it's stepping stones, and I know Ionian is 1, so the rest falls out of there in fifths.
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Thanks for sharing. The application of modes is my greatest weakness when it comes to soloing. Gotta get to work. I appreciate the inspiration.
 
#117
bassboysam said:
i play rock and use modes all the time. usually its to just come up with a riff. to avoid the overmined pentatonic scale, i'll pick some other scale based on the mood i want to go for. i determine the tonic and what the important characteristic notes of the mode are and then try to come up with something i like. many times i end up changing the tonic or the mode but at the end of the day it inspires ideas and pushes me to be creative.
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I see you type in modes too... with no caps :)
 
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#119
Currently, I'm listening to a new Scott Kinsey's album, 'We Speak Luniwaz'.
PERSONNEL Scott Kinsey - keyboards, piano, vocoder Katise Buckingham - tenor & soprano saxophones, flute, rhymes Hadrien Feraud - electric bass Gergo Borlai - drums SPECIAL GUESTS Bobby Thomas Jr - percussion Arto Tunçboyaciyan - percussion Steve Tavaglione - saxophone Jimmy Haslip - electric bass Michael Baker - drums Danny Carey - electronic drums Cyril Atef - drums Brad Dutz - percussion Naina Kundu - voice

In short. The whole song, The Harvest is a never-ending melodic and harmonic movement about just one chord that I could call it as the Jimmy Hendrix C# chord or a simplified version as C#7(#9).
That melodic and harmonic movement produces a lot of strange chords.
What MODE is used in this case?

Electric Bass – Invalid Link Removed

 
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#120
Let's listen to a few measures from the above mentioned Scott Kinsey's track, "The Harvest".
It's from 1:32 through 1:42.
The melody uses pure diatonic notes of C# major scale - E#, G#, E#, D#, and C#.

th-mel.PNG


th-mel2.PNG






Jimmy Haslip plays C# on Beat 1 and E natural/D## (D-double sharp) = #9 on syncopated Beat 3.
th-b1.PNG


But, Jimmy ends that section by playing the MAJOR 3rd note.

The bass notes ascending - C#, E#, F#, G#, Bnatural as in C#dom7, C#.

th-b2.PNG





Here is that soundclip just SLOWER!

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...1/?temp_hash=2d015f4217742384ca086fcc7283d878
 

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