The modes are dangerous black magic!

[Whousedtoplay]

I improvise in the notes of C Ionian

You improvise using the notes of Ionian mode - you know what notes are important to that mode, what notes separate Ionian from Lydian.
Now, you know the fundamentals of MODES, about the nota finalis - the final note.
Also, I you say, I improvise by using the notes of C Ionian, you know what notes to emphasize, what notes to repeat in order to get your message across, "Hey, I am improvising by using the Ionian mode".

Now.

What if you improvising and using C Ionian mode while the guitar player vamps "pure" Dmaj7 chord?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So now, I'm curious... Why do I think there are no modes? I mean, you might be right. I do know that I think about modes in the same way that Steve Vai does, but hey, He could be wrong too. What does he know?

How would you understand the following statement?
"Modes are horizontal, chords/harmony is vertical".

 

[Spin Doctor]

What if you improvising and using C Ionian mode while the guitar player vamps "pure" Dmaj7 chord?

We are talking about diatonic modes. That's the topic.

But as usual, you make up some really stupid situation and try to analyze it. C Ionian isn't diatonic to D Maj7. It's also not diatonic to A major, which also has a D major 7 as the IV chord.

So not only is the question not relevant to the topic which is what you do all the time, but it's a dumb waste of time.

 

[Spin Doctor]

How would you understand the following statement?
"Modes are horizontal, chords/harmony is vertical".

Is answering this going to make my playing better? Nope. This is just more of your random nonsense that has nothing really to do with music.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Is answering this going to make my playing better?

No, and that's why I tend to not participate in similar theoretical discussions anymore.

 

[mambo4]

These discussions always remind me of the Buddhist parable of the blind men and the elephant.
Modes by nature lend themselves to multiple useful approaches and interpretations.
When you take 7 out of 12 notes and try to identify one "right" way to consider them,
you must be careful lest you exclude other valid ways to see it.

 

[Spin Doctor]

No, and that's why I tend to not participate in similar theoretical discussions anymore.

Who asked you to? Certainly not me. I was asked a question and I answered it. Your chiming in was all on you.

 

[Spin Doctor]

These discussions always remind me of the Buddhist parable of the blind men and the elephant.
Modes by nature lend themselves to multiple useful approaches and interpretations.
When you take 7 out of 12 notes and try to identify one "right" way to consider them,
you must be careful lest you exclude other valid ways to see it.

Exactly... Hence my comment on the dangers of binary thinking. See how it all comes around...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Who asked you to? Certainly not me. I was asked a question and I answered it. Your chiming in was all on you.

A few times in the past, I was not very diplomatic answering your questions.
This time, I feel your unnecessary temper; therefore, good luck with your music, my dear TB colleague.

P.S. Back to my favorite thread about Cats. No animosity.
Only cat lovers.

 

[Spin Doctor]

A few times in the past, I was not very diplomatic answering your questions.
This time, I feel your unnecessary temper; therefore, good luck with your music, my dear TB colleague.

P.S. Back to my favorite thread about Cats. No animosity.
Only cat lovers.

Dude. I honestly don't have any questions for you. Thanks anyway though. That thing about using C Ionian over Dmaj7 when we are talking about diatonic harmony, was irritating and unhelpful. It would have been best for you to not have even brought that up.

It's that kind of dumb stuff that causes confusion and makes it tough for everybody. It's not helping talkbass and you were trying to waste my time.

 

[Mushroo]

For the 0.1% of songs that require modal thinking, knowing the modes is absolutely necessary!
If you are happy understanding only 99.9% of songs, good for you, but some of us want to understand 100% of the songs.
I strongly feel spending a day or two learning the modes is time well spent for anyone who wants to be a "versatile" musician.

 

[nnnnnn]

the modern use of modes is simply to have a place to put your hands when you improvise or play a line. That means, being able to manipulate the modes as a pitch collection rather than an entity unto itself. Do I want to play high or low? If I want to play low, I can play Ionian based pitch collection. If I want to play high I can use phrygian or maybe mixolydian pitch collection.

No. This is not what modes are. From your various posts in this thread you seem to be saying modern mode usage is just about fingering patterns, but that is not true.

I know some people say they're using a different mode for every chord, e.g., if the chords are C, F, G7, C they say they're playing Ionian, Lydian, mixolydian, Ionian over them (respectively), but that's not really using modes at all, that's just playing in C major.

The "mood" explanation is the correct one, except a mode applies to the song or to a section of the song, not to individual chords within a song. E.g., if the chords are C, F, Bb, C, and C is clearly the "home" chord, then the melody is likely using the C mixolydian scale and I would describe the progression as mixolydian.

 

[smeet]

Modes were just a little algorithm to generate some new 7-tone scales, by "rotating" the tones of an existing 7-tone scale (or alternatively rotating the intervals WWHWWH). That's all. They are no more or less valid than any other scale(s), unless the WWHWWH pattern is important to you. Each mode is its own scale, with its own colors. The Lydian scale is a major scale with a #4. IMO it is conceptually useless to think of it as the 4th degree of the major scale. The color of F Lydian (Lydian starting on F) only is heard when the root is heard as F, that is, in relation to F Ionian. Comparing F Lydian to C Ionian gives you very little musically, because they have the same sound.

You can also use modes as an easy way to derive fingerings for a given scale all over the fingerboard. It can be a good practice device, but IMO these are not modes, just the same scale starting on different notes.

To practice modes, I would suggest playing all 7 modes with C as their root (C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc.). Then play all modes with F as their root, and so on for all roots. That way you will clearly hear the color differences between these different scales, and not just their derivation from the major scale.

 

[Spin Doctor]

As Mambo said, there are any number of ways of approaching the subject. It wasn't all that smart for me to have gotten into the discussion in the first place, since I know how it always turns out. Lol. It's talkbass.

 

[Spin Doctor]

No. This is not what modes are. From your various posts in this thread you seem to be saying modern mode usage is just about fingering patterns, but that is not true.

I know some people say they're using a different mode for every chord, e.g., if the chords are C, F, G7, C they say they're playing Ionian, Lydian, mixolydian, Ionian over them (respectively), but that's not really using modes at all, that's just playing in C major.

The "mood" explanation is the correct one, except a mode applies to the song or to a section of the song, not to individual chords within a song. E.g., if the chords are C, F, Bb, C, and C is clearly the "home" chord, then the melody is likely using the C mixolydian scale and I would describe the progression as mixolydian.

OK, cool

 

[Mushroo]

The "mood" explanation is the correct one, except a mode applies to the song or to a section of the song, not to individual chords within a song. E.g., if the chords are C, F, Bb, C, and C is clearly the "home" chord, then the melody is likely using the C mixolydian scale and I would describe the progression as mixolydian.

I follow what you're saying here, but I'd caution against applying a "modal" way of thinking to this chord progression. I think if you transcribe some popular songs that use this type of progression, you'll see that songwriters often use the note Bb only for the Bb chord, and they are careful to avoid Bb while the C or F chords are sounding. Thus, deliberately avoiding a C7 or "mixolydian sound." And in fact, often these songs will also have a Gmaj or G7 chord, therefore containing both B flat and B natural (depending on the harmonic context). In that situation, the song is not considered "modal" at all.

A famous example would be "Hey You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" by the Beatles. The song is in the key of G Major, and has prominent F naturals, but it is NOT a "modal composition in the key of G mixolydian" as a beginner might assume.

 

[Spin Doctor]

To practice modes, I would suggest playing all 7 modes with C as their root (C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc.). Then play all modes with F as their root, and so on for all roots. That way you will clearly hear the color differences between these different scales, and not just their derivation from the major scale.

This only applies if you play the modes in isolation, i.e. in the style of a Gregorain Chants with no chords to define the sound. I was talking about using modes with a preexisting harmonic underpinning like in a song. Quite specifically, as in jazz which is what I mostly play.

That's where I was getting into the mixing and matching of ancient era theory with modern. It's of no real use, in my opinion. But hey, you gotta go with what you know and what works for you. If you mostly play rock or folk or something like that, modes don't mean much anyway.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That thing about using C Ionian over Dmaj7 when we are talking about diatonic harmony, was irritating and unhelpful. It would have been best for you to not have even brought that up.

A few years ago, I was more energetic and thought differently.

I know you have forgotten my old postings.

Here is what I posted four years ago.
Which modes should I use in the different chords?

A few days ago, I posted my humorous attempt to play some lame "soloing" over two chord progression: Gmaj7 | Ab13 | by using
ONLY the notes from C major scale.
(I've recorded the "rhythmic guitar part on my Jazz Bass and "lifted up" by one octave on my Presonus Studio One.)

And here is what you, no anyone else, but you responded.

N.B. And you were NOT MAD at me.

I think this is pretty cool... Some interesting harmonies going on there that I really dig.

Here is that soundclip.
The chords are Gmaj7 | Ab13 and the "soloing notes" are from C major.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=de21f823e5cf2a506d343b24c6178f0d

 

[John Metta]

Me, following this thread.

 

[JimmyM]

Sheesh! You guys are getting really intense over modes! OK, so there's another benefit...Talkbass entertainment.

But at the risk of spreading some feel-good and taking out the animosity, if you feel you get benefit out of learning the modes inside out, or even if you don't, they're a good idea to at least learn and get a feel for. But for crying out loud, don't let it get in the way of creating. The chords really do tell you everything you need to know, and if you get all about modes when you're playing, you might miss something to play that's a million times more effective than sticking rigidly to a mode. I don't think I can say the same thing in reverse.

The good news, however, is you can combine modal thinking with a less rigid approach that allows for stepping out of the box simply by moving a finger