The modes are dangerous black magic!

[smeet]

This only applies if you play the modes in isolation, i.e. in the style of a Gregorain Chants with no chords to define the sound. I was talking about using modes with a preexisting harmonic underpinning like in a song. Quite specifically, as in jazz which is what I mostly play.

That's where I was getting into the mixing and matching of ancient era theory with modern. It's of no real use, in my opinion. But hey, you gotta go with what you know and what works for you. If you mostly play rock or folk or something like that, modes don't mean much anyway.

I play a number of styles, jazz among them. But as far as practical theory, I go with the Hal Galper way of thinking - jazz playing was originally conceived of as being based on chord tones, and not scales. The passing tones or extensions you choose to add are at the discretion of the player's ear (or any theoretical method you prefer).

In the end, if it sounds good, it is good.

 

[Spin Doctor]

A few years ago, I was more energetic and thought differently.

I know you have forgotten my old postings.

Here is what I posted four years ago.
Which modes should I use in the different chords?

A few days ago, I posted my humorous attempt to play some lame "soloing" over two chord progression: Gmaj7 | Ab13 | by using
ONLY the notes from C major scale.
(I've recorded the "rhythmic guitar part on my Jazz Bass and "lifted up" by one octave on my Presonus Studio One.)

And here is what you, no anyone else, but you responded.

N.B. And you were NOT MAD at me.




Here is that soundclip.
The chords are Gmaj7 | Ab13 and the "soloing notes" are from C major.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=de21f823e5cf2a506d343b24c6178f0d

Playing outside the changes is always cool when it's appropriate. But that's not what we were talking about here. At least I wasn't. I wasn't trying to get the water all muddy with random stuff.

However you guys see it is fine. I respect your different points of view.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I go with the Hal Galper way of thinking - jazz playing was originally conceived of as being based on chord tones, and not scales

Yeah I know. That's why Miles Davis got into modal (scale based) playing. He was sick of playing a bunch of chord tones in the way it had always been done..

 

[TerribleTim68]

Jesus, I barely know a major and minor scale. Sometimes you guys make me want to just sell all my stuff.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But that's not what we were talking about here.

Here is my point.
(Without any emotions.)

If I play C Ionian mode - It's IONIAN mode.
If my keyboard player plays the Dmaj7 chord, and if it clashes, if it irritates other musicians, if it irritates the audience and they start throwing chairs at me, I still play that C Ionian mode.
The musicians would ask,
"Hey, what are you doing? Do you hear that nasty outcome of your playing C Ionian mode while the whole band is playing Dmaj7?"
Some "smart" theoreticians could laugh, "He's playing C Ionian over Dmaj7" WHY???".
In short.
If I play that C Ionian over any chord, most probably, everyone would say, "Is he crazy or what",
but my mode would still be C Ionian.

Now.
Let's take a slightly different look at those two scales - C major (a.k.a C Ionian) and D major.

And now, at D major scale.

As you can see, I have 5 notes from the C major scale that I can use it with Dmaj(7).
The other two notes, F# and C#, would remind me about chromatics.

 

[Mushroo]

@Whousedtoplay as always your posts are thought provoking, and you bring up some good points.

Any time I learn a new music theory concept, I always try to apply it to famous songs that I know.

For example "I Know You Rider" made famous by the Grateful Dead. The song is in the key of D Major (two sharps, F# and C#) but it has a prominent C Major chord (for example on the word "miss" in the line "I know you rider, gonna miss me when I'm gone").

So that's a pretty famous example of how you might use a C Major scale (or C Ionian mode if you want to call it that) in the key of D Major.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Here is my point.
(Without any emotions.)

If I play C Ionian mode - It's IONIAN mode.
If my keyboard player plays the Dmaj7 chord, and if it clashes, if it irritates other musicians, if it irritates the audience and they start throwing chairs at me, I still play that C Ionian mode.
The musicians would ask,
"Hey, what are you doing? Do you hear that nasty outcome of your playing C Ionian mode while the whole band is playing Dmaj7?"
Some "smart" theoreticians could laugh, "He's playing C Ionian over Dmaj7" WHY???".
In short.
If I play that C Ionian over any chord, most probably, everyone would say, "Is he crazy or what",
but my mode would still be C Ionian.

Now.
Let's take a slightly different look at those two scales - C major (a.k.a C Ionian) and D major.
View attachment 3600212

And now, at D major scale.

View attachment 3600216


As you can see, I have 5 notes from the C major scale that I can use it with Dmaj(7).
The other two notes, F# and C#, would remind me about chromatics.

Honestly all I can say about all of the above is that I don't understand your approach to music. I mean, all you're doing is playing 5 notes contained in a D major scale. I have no idea why you would ever call that C Ionian. There's not a single "C" to be found in that 5 note grouping. Why not call it F something? It doesn't have any of those either.

If it at least had a "C" in there somewhere, I could at least get behind the idea of a false modulation. But in your example, there is none. So, you know... What can I say? You're so random, lol and your descriptions are confused. Or rather, I'll just say they confuse me. There's only 12 notes. Of course every scale will have notes common to every other scale.

We just don't see this stuff in the same way at all. Lets just leave it at that.

 

[nnnnnn]

I follow what you're saying here, but I'd caution against applying a "modal" way of thinking to this chord progression. I think if you transcribe some popular songs that use this type of progression, you'll see that songwriters often use the note Bb only for the Bb chord, and they are careful to avoid Bb while the C or F chords are sounding. Thus, deliberately avoiding a C7 or "mixolydian sound." And in fact, often these songs will also have a Gmaj or G7 chord, therefore containing both B flat and B natural (depending on the harmonic context). In that situation, the song is not considered "modal" at all.

I completely agree. In my earlier post I was trying to give a really simple example with a short explanation. Melody and chords both matter. We have some books of Celtic folk tunes that are clearly modal.

I think another useful explanation of modes, or at least the way I think of them, is to go back to the simplistic concept beginning musicians often learn that songs are in either a "major" or "minor" key, and reframe that to say that "major" and "minor" are just two of the possible modes but there are other choices such as Lydian or mixolydian. That is, the mode is the underlying tonality of the song.

(But one can still include some outside notes or chords, it doesn't have to be the selected mode and nothing but that mode for literally every note in the song.)

 

[bassboysam]

If you mostly play rock or folk or something like that, modes don't mean much anyway.

i play rock and use modes all the time. usually its to just come up with a riff. to avoid the overmined pentatonic scale, i'll pick some other scale based on the mood i want to go for. i determine the tonic and what the important characteristic notes of the mode are and then try to come up with something i like. many times i end up changing the tonic or the mode but at the end of the day it inspires ideas and pushes me to be creative.

 

[MrLenny1]

Scott Devine has a good lesson on this
which puts into focus quickly.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Melody and chords both matter.

It ALL matters. I'm not advocating using modes over chord tones over pentatonics. You need to be able to use and execute all of it. That's why I don't understand the burning desire for talkbass people to always say, it's this one thing, right here, all the time.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I trust Rick Beato, and interestingly he sort of says both: Modes teach where the notes are, and give you sounds.

Yeah, I checked out some of this video and bingo! It's all about the chords he plays... THAT is the harmonic underpinning I was talking about. Those chords. He wasn't playing single note lines. Single note lines don't define the "sound" or "mood" in modern music. The chords do.

So to try to apply that "mood" thing to the single note lines that bass players tend to play to the exclusion of the harmonic underpinning that clearly exists, just does not work for me. If it works for you, then that's cool. I simply choose not to think of it in that way.

 

[Mushroo]

I think another useful explanation of modes, or at least the way I think of them, is to go back to the simplistic concept beginning musicians often learn that songs are in either a "major" or "minor" key, and reframe that to say that "major" and "minor" are just two of the possible modes but there are other choices such as Lydian or mixolydian. That is, the mode is the underlying tonality of the song.

I don't agree with that one, either. "I Know You Rider" is in the "key of D Major" not the "key of D Mixolydian." Or another example, imagine a song that is written in the key of D Minor, but uses B natural instead of B flat. That song is said to be in the "key of D Minor" not the "key of D Dorian."

 

[nnnnnn]

I don't agree with that one, either. "I Know You Rider" is in the "key of D Major" not the "key of D Mixolydian." Or another example, imagine a song that is written in the key of D Minor, but uses B natural instead of B flat. That song is said to be in the "key of D Minor" not the "key of D Dorian."

Now you're just being difficult.* In my opinion if a song is in D minor but uses B natural exclusively, no Bb, I'd call that D Dorian. But I wouldn't object to somebody calling it D minor.

I'm not familiar with I Know You Rider, other than the one page of music you posted above, so I don't have an opinion about it specifically, but I'm sure I've played other songs in D major that did have C chords in them but which I would not call D mixolydian.

*I'm kidding

 

[Mushroo]

Now you're just being difficult.* In my opinion if a song is in D minor but uses B natural exclusively, no Bb, I'd call that D Dorian. But I wouldn't object to somebody calling it D minor.

A really famous example is "Oye Como Va" by Tito Puente. Key of A Minor (no sharps, no flats) so you write an accidental sign every time an F# occurs.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

@Whousedtoplay as always your posts are thought provoking, and you bring up some good points.

Any time I learn a new music theory concept, I always try to apply it to famous songs that I know.

For example "I Know You Rider" made famous by the Grateful Dead. The song is in the key of D Major (two sharps, F# and C#) but it has a prominent C Major chord (for example on the word "miss" in the line "I know you rider, gonna miss me when I'm gone").

So that's a pretty famous example of how you might use a C Major scale (or C Ionian mode if you want to call it that) in the key of D Major.

View attachment 3600234

I will try to explain my point tomorrow.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't agree with that one, either. "I Know You Rider" is in the "key of D Major" not the "key of D Mixolydian." Or another example, imagine a song that is written in the key of D Minor, but uses B natural instead of B flat. That song is said to be in the "key of D Minor" not the "key of D Dorian."

Ya, tell me the key and I'll figure out the underlying tonality on my own. As a matter of fact, why would I even care about the underlying tonality on "I Know You Rider"? I'm playing the bass. What are the roots?

 

[nnnnnn]

A really famous example is "Oye Como Va" by Tito Puente. Key of A Minor (no sharps, no flats) so you write an accidental sign every time an F# occurs.

Without commenting on that song specifically, just because a given song was notated a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that the notation is right, or that some other notation choices wouldn't have been better. I'm sure we've all seen some pretty weird notation choices from time to time, things we would all agree are wrong (for reasons unrelated to modes).

 

[Mushroo]

Without commenting on that song specifically, just because a given song was notated a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that the notation is right, or that some other notation choices wouldn't have been better. I'm sure we've all seen some pretty weird notation choices from time to time, things we would all agree are wrong (for reasons unrelated to modes).

You are absolutely right, and in fact if you google "oye como va sheet music" you will find find different versions with different key signatures. Naturally I picked the version that best supported my argument.

Which to recap what my argument is (because I do tend to ramble): There are 30 commonly used key signatures (15 major keys and 15 minor keys) that are the sane default choice for notating 99.9% of mainstream western music. For example: If a song has a C major tonality, then the safe choice is C major key signature (no sharps or flats). Or if a song has a C minor tonality, then the safe choice is C minor key signature (3 flats). The main purpose of the key signature is to show you at a glance the song's tonality. The key signature does not specify which modes you should play (for example the C minor key signature does not distinguish between C natural minor, C harmonic minor, C melodic minor, C dorian, C phrygian, and so forth) and most importantly, they key signature never tells you which notes you "can and can't play" because that's what "accidental" symbols are for.

Specific examples: "I Know You Rider" begins and ends on a Dmaj chord, so it's in the key of D Major, and it is safe to notate it with D Major key signature (2 sharps). "Oye Como Va" begins and ends on an Amin chord, so it's in the key of A Minor, and it's safe to notate it with A Minor key signature (no sharps or flats).

And you're right: Even very experienced musicians sometimes make odd notational decisions. One that's always aggravated me is the "All Blues" transcription in the original Real Book; they wrote it with a C major key signature when obviously to the ear it is a G major blues and should have 1 sharp in the key signature. (I believe this was corrected in future editions.)

 

[John Metta]

Well, this has been fun. The back and forth over what they mean is interesting, but it's really really surprising to me that people would argue I shouldn't learn the modes or that I don't know what I'm talking about. The former is at best questionable, the later is utterly inexplicable.

For anyone who's still interested in modes after all the bomb blasts, I'm really enjoying Rich Brown's course in Scott's Bass Lessons. Mostly because he just gives a bit of a guidepost and then encourages slow exploration on my own. Just thought I'd give a link in case anyone is interested.

Mastering the Modes for the Improvising Bass Player with Rich Brown

We now return to our battle, already in progress.