D-double sharp ???
Sounds like an E to me but I'm not schooled in music theory.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
The modes are dangerous black magic!
- Thread starter John Metta
- Start date
-
- Tags
- improvising modes
Sounds like an E to me but I'm not schooled in music theory.
Thank you for listening to that soundclip.
Thank you for responding to my comment.
Yes, on the piano it is E!
Here is the logic for that D##.
The 9th degree of the C# major scale is D#; therefore, #9 of the C# major scale would be D##.
What if we call it Db major scale (for our brass/horn "converted" bass players), then, the 9th degree would be Eb and #9 would be E natural (as #Eb
).
I know there are plenty of people telling me not to bother and plenty more telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Whatever. I just sat down to figure out a Christmas song’s melody, and didn’t have to hunt around at all, it just fell out of my fingers. Then others started falling out of my fingers too. 20 minutes later, I had 5 Christmas songs. All by thinking about the modes I’ve been studying.
Maybe I’ve just internalized scales (I don’t have the sheet music, so was playing them all by ear). Maybe I’ve internalized intervals (was certainly thinking about what the interval I expected was). Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about (undoubtedly, since, remember: learning).
But I sat down with my bass, a song I didn’t know, and thought about the modes, and that song and four other songs fell almost effortlessly from my fingers. (And there’s a whole other conversation about what it’s done for my understanding of walking bass lines.)
Black Magic, coincidence, or placebo, I don’t care. It’s reason enough for me to keep studying the modes.
Maybe I’ve just internalized scales (I don’t have the sheet music, so was playing them all by ear). Maybe I’ve internalized intervals (was certainly thinking about what the interval I expected was). Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about (undoubtedly, since, remember: learning).
But I sat down with my bass, a song I didn’t know, and thought about the modes, and that song and four other songs fell almost effortlessly from my fingers. (And there’s a whole other conversation about what it’s done for my understanding of walking bass lines.)
Black Magic, coincidence, or placebo, I don’t care. It’s reason enough for me to keep studying the modes.
Or you could have just directly learned the Christmas songs, probably in half the time or less, if you didn't take the unnecessary detour into mode-land. And good luck applying a "modal" concept to 20th century standards like "White Christmas" or "Winter Wonderland."
Last edited:
Sure. Give a man a fish…
I have to say, I honestly don’t understand all the criticism directed at someone who’s simply excited about learning. I don’t know if I said something really wrong or it’s a just normal internet tendency to lambaste those who aren’t perfect, but this isn’t exactly a place I feel comfortable going for encouragement anymore. I’ll just go back to lurking.
I have to say, I honestly don’t understand all the criticism directed at someone who’s simply excited about learning. I don’t know if I said something really wrong or it’s a just normal internet tendency to lambaste those who aren’t perfect, but this isn’t exactly a place I feel comfortable going for encouragement anymore. I’ll just go back to lurking.
I apologize, but the thing is you don't actually seem "excited about learning" to me? If anything, it seems like you are looking for some kind of magic shortcut, to get around actually having to do the hard work of learning songs.
Going back to your first post, you said your wife asked you to jam on a cool song you'd never heard before, and yet you specifically and deliberately chose to learn none of the following things that might have deepened your understanding of this song:
- What's the title of the song?
- Who wrote it?
- What key it is in?
- What are the chord changes?
- What scales or modes (if any) does it use? (You think maybe it feels like Locrian, but that seems unlikely.)
- What language are the lyrics are in? And what do they mean?
Anyway, it seems like you are back on the right track now, learning Christmas carols by ear, which is a fantastic exercise this time of year. I hope I did not come across as discouraging. If anything, I am trying to be your "cheerleader" and encourage you not to skip over the fundamentals of music theory! Also keep in mind, you are stepping into a heated discussion about "modes" that has been raging on TalkBass for years. Not all of this ongoing conversation is directed personally at you. I hate modes but I certainly don't hate you, my friend!
I don't view modes the same way as some other people do, but if however you conceptualize it is helping you learn musical things, then that's a good thing for you. There are many roads to Mecca.
Please don't just lurk, open discussion is healthy. For the most part there aren't right and wrong answers to musical questions. Hearing how you conceptualize something can sometimes give someone else an epiphany. Or it can make them uncomfortable because that's not how they look at things. Either way it's an opportunity for everyone to learn.
This is such an easy and simple diagram. Kind of genius
Spend some time gitten the modes in your soul.
Spend at least 10 minutes a day cycling the modes from lydian to locrian and back (lydian, ionian, mixolydian etc). Then 5 2 1, then 1 6 25, then 3 6 25. Then Autumn Leaves. Set the metronome to 60 on 2 and 4, shut your eyes, focus and play. Do this for a month and you will be amazed at your progress. Know the name of every note you play and the scale degree relative to the mode you are playing.
Its no magic. Its all about quality practice.
Spend at least 10 minutes a day cycling the modes from lydian to locrian and back (lydian, ionian, mixolydian etc). Then 5 2 1, then 1 6 25, then 3 6 25. Then Autumn Leaves. Set the metronome to 60 on 2 and 4, shut your eyes, focus and play. Do this for a month and you will be amazed at your progress. Know the name of every note you play and the scale degree relative to the mode you are playing.
Its no magic. Its all about quality practice.
I have found if you put the mode root at the very bottom and the tritone at the top, it helps a lot.
Seek out sources and information from known high level players. You don't necessarily have to put a lot of stock into info from random internet dwellers, unless you can find something that clicks.
Each pie is a graphical depiction of a scale system (major diatonic, minor melodic, pentatonic.
Each pie has 12 slices corresponding to the 12 notes in a Western scale. The darkened slices represent notes in the scale going clockwise. The first note selected determines the mode.
So the graph visualizes the relationship for all notes and spaces for all the modes in one glance.
Thanks. I know you are a skilled jazz players and will see a lot of things to use in your playing once you get beyond the Ionian is the root. The melodic minor graph helped me come to grips with the scale esp. Lydian augmented.
The modes are dangerous black magic until you undertand them, whereupon they become very useful tools. No more magic.
Today, a blues artist called " minor blues in D." Most bassists would have been stuck in a minor pentatonic 1 4 5 rut.
If you know your modes, there are many more options including the dorian, or dorian b2, for the 1 and 4 to mix in with the minor pentatonic, and the mixolydian, mixo,b6 for the 5 along with augmented and superlocrian on the turnaround to wake up any sleeping drunks.
No mo magic, just a bigger tool case.
Today, a blues artist called " minor blues in D." Most bassists would have been stuck in a minor pentatonic 1 4 5 rut.
If you know your modes, there are many more options including the dorian, or dorian b2, for the 1 and 4 to mix in with the minor pentatonic, and the mixolydian, mixo,b6 for the 5 along with augmented and superlocrian on the turnaround to wake up any sleeping drunks.
No mo magic, just a bigger tool case.
And yes, a b6 or #5 can be edgy for a blues guitarist. Just use your ears and use the nonpentatonic notes judiciously. And b2s work better descending, so the are an approach note to the root, rather than a leadout to another mode.
You need to be listening to and supporting the soloist as duty no. 1, but you can have a little fun, then go home and watch 3 Willie Weeks videos for penance.
You need to be listening to and supporting the soloist as duty no. 1, but you can have a little fun, then go home and watch 3 Willie Weeks videos for penance.
there are many different ways to use the concept of modes. what many people seem to not understand though is the difference between tonal and modal music. modal music is not very popular anymore and hasn't been for a few hundred years. that does not mean modes are not useful in modern music, but i think people misunderstand what ot is they are actually doing.
this is probably the best explanation of how modal and tonal differ.
this is probably the best explanation of how modal and tonal differ.
