The modes are dangerous black magic!

[dbsfgyd1]

I got that from Anthony Wellington's video. He went into the pattern of the modes on the bass and it really clicked for me. He showed how all modes are part of the repeating pattern going from the lowest register string to the highest (he demonstrated on a 7 string bass).

W - W : Mixolydian (W is "whole step.")
W - W : Ionian
W - W : Lydian
12-4 : Locrian (Numbers are frets, referenced from one fret higher than last W-W start)
12-4 : Phrygian
1-34 : Aolian
1-34 : Dorian

If you have two W-W patterns and jump to 12-4, you can really only go to 12-4, and then 1-34. If you start there, that's Ionian. So MILLPAD is his way of remembering that pattern. It's not ordered the same way because he's going by frets and strings, so each is, like our strings, a fifth. But it made more sense to me that way. The I-D-P-Ly.. ordering didn't have that same logical pattern in relation to the bass.

I still need to remember what number each is, but it's stepping stones, and I know Ionian is 1, so the rest falls out of there in fifths.

I never knew the names as applied to the notes, but I sure uses them a lot. Thanks for the description.

 

[nnnnnn]

Those mode names are absolutely rediculous, though. They sound like diseases or ancient afflictions

Wow, really? Because they're words from another language?

 

[Groove Master]

I think it’s more useful for jazz and similar styles that favor a lot of improvisation. Not necessarily as applicable to other forms of music where classic music theory and harmony illuminates what’s going on in a given piece of music much better.

Ideally, you’ll get handle on both since each has its uses and excels in different areas. But I would not say understanding modes is absolutely the most useful tool a bassist can have in their skillset.

Just my own 2¢ anyway.

Harmony is harmony no matter the styles. Yes in jazz it is useful but it is even more useful in pop and rock where every note means something especially in the bass part ;-).

 

[Groove Master]

I would dispute that. Understanding harmony is a order of magnitude more useful (IMHO)

Of course a deep, thorough understanding of harmony and its implications and variations will map quite closely onto a deep, thorough understanding of modes and its implications and variations. Ultimately it's descriptions of notes that "go together". I just find the harmony path straight, effecient and direct, while modes are meandering paths that get beginners lost and confused.

Honestly I think we are both saying the same thing but I see from the OP that too many beginners don't know exactly what are modes and where or why you can use them which bring the discussion back to knowing some theory and harmony and being able to analyze chord progressions.

 

[Groove Master]

When we consider that a minor chord could be either a I, II, III,IV or VI degree in a chord progression then you better know what are the other notes besides the triad to play efficiently. All those degrees have different scale constructions around the triad and if you play the wrong sixth as an example then you are playing against the key and it will clash somewhere.

 

[frankie5string]

They actually aren't another language at all. They are based on regions in Greece. They are completely made up to represent musical tonalities that existed before modern chords and have nothing at all to do with the position or the choice of the notes, and they don't describe what is actually happening.

It would be like me saying "starting on 3rd degree of a scale over C-Minor should be called Washingtonian and the 4th degree would be New Yorkian."

Also, you do realize that each of the modal names can actually mean three different things depending on which era of music you're talking about?

Wow, really? Because they're words from another language?

 

[40Hz]

Harmony is harmony no matter the styles. Yes in jazz it is useful but it is even more useful in pop and rock where every note means something especially in the bass part ;-).

I won’t argue. But I’ve done jazz and I’ve done rock. In jazz I’ve often thought in terms of modal structure while playing. But when it comes to rock I hardly ever have. For rock I find modern chromatic music theory far applicable.

And harmony may be harmony. But genre and genre conventions have a lot to say about what is and isn’t acceptable within a genre.

Jazz tolerates a much looser structure and more ambiguity in the tonic center than rock does. Take too much of a rock approach to your soloing or chording while in jazz setting and you’ll get told to go back to school.

Layer a ton of jazz voiced chords into a song while playing in a rock band and you’ll get told to stop making noise, or “just play normal chords.“

In my little musical universe, harmony and music theory identifies what’s possible; whereas genre dictates what’s considered acceptable with its own domain.

Or so I think anyway.

Not everyone will agree. But I’m good with that.

 

[joebar]

Consider them moods first and foremost.
Agree that chord tones are more important than scales.
I agree with the vamp things as well.
Let’s say you’re going back and forth from a i-IV7 vamp-let’s go with Amin/D7...Super common progression. You know the tonal centre is a minor mood of some sort; is it a natural minor mood or a Dorian minor mood?
If you stay on that Amin chord, you could play all sorts of stuff over it; there’s nothing really stopping you until you get to the D7 chord.
If you were in A natural minor, you’ll notice immediately that that b6 note (F) will clash strongly with the natural 6 in the D7 chord. So what’s happening here?
The dorian minor has that natural 6 that meets the criteria of the vamp you’re working with.
That natural 6 is the key to this mood. You can actively train your ear to listen and identify these moods with some practice.
Of course this is simplified but this how I approach the moods/modes.
There is a ton of music to be made without going modal. I think a lot of players don’t really fully understand how to apply them and when they do, they miss the point. It’s a difficult concept and requires some lightbulb moments. Just my two cents

 

[nnnnnn]

They actually aren't another language at all. They are based on regions in Greece. They are completely made up to represent musical tonalities that existed before modern chords

All words are made up. But wait, you're saying they didn't come into English from another language, they were made up by English speakers?

 

[Vinny_G]

Mode (music) - Wikipedia

 

[Spin Doctor]

I would dispute that. Understanding harmony is a order of magnitude more useful (IMHO)

Of course a deep, thorough understanding of harmony and its implications and variations will map quite closely onto a deep, thorough understanding of modes and its implications and variations. Ultimately it's descriptions of notes that "go together". I just find the harmony path straight, effecient and direct, while modes are meandering paths that get beginners lost and confused.

This is kind of the binary thinking that happens almost constantly on talk-bass. Rather than seeing the interconnections within music, everything becomes a thing that's either This or That...

Of course, algebraic equations are difficult to beginners who know nothing of algebra. But you still need to know how to add 1+1 to perform the operation. Does that mean that if I only know how to add 1+1, that I should ignore algebra and declare it useless? Almost no one would say that learning to add 1+1 isn't related to learning differential equations. In talk-bass world, nothing is related to anything else.

How about trying to learn the information in the proper order? This seems to occur in every discipline, except music.

One of the biggest mistakes people make about modes is trying to apply Gregorian Era modal theory to modern usage. That whole "modes are moods" thing. In modern use, modes have nothing to do with moods. Those are two totally different concepts, with two totally different approaches. They are not the same at all. They simply use the same terminology.

I guess, if you plan to be a cashier all your life, then adding and subtracting is more useful than calculus, if you're into calling one thing is more useful than another. If you want to design bridges, then you want to have more knowledge than that. I'm more into designing bridges than running a checkout line.

 

[mambo4]

I used to be more guilty of the binary view: Screw modes, just learn harmony.
But in Anthony Wellington's words "knowing something is better than not knowing something"
If it's important enough to be named by the tradition, it's likely worth knowing.

ow about trying to learn the information in the proper order? This seems to occur in every discipline, except music.

Agreed: Learn Harmony before modes.
It gets backwards because scales are the first thing bassists learn
so the execution of more scales is pretty easy to grasp
Harmony demands some theory, some time at a piano or guitar, and hopefully notation.
So its slightly less accessible than more scales

In modern use, modes have nothing to do with moods. Those are two totally different concepts, with two totally different approaches.

The way I understand modes is that each has a sound (aka "mood" I guess)
you play a mode ( and /or use its harmony ) it when you want the that sound.
Is that not the modern use?

 

[Spin Doctor]

...The way I understand modes is that each has a sound (aka "mood" I guess)
you play a mode ( and /or use its harmony ) it when you want the that sound.
Is that not the modern use?

No.

Nobody told me this as I just sort of figured it out based on my lessons and other experience, but the modern use of modes is simply to have a place to put your hands when you improvise or play a line. That means, being able to manipulate the modes as a pitch collection rather than an entity unto itself. Do I want to play high or low? If I want to play low, I can play Ionian based pitch collection. If I want to play high I can use phrygian or maybe mixolydian pitch collection.

I can do this, because in modern usage, it's not the modal shape that determines the sound of a line. It's the harmonic underpinning that determines the sound. Gregorian Music had no harmonic underpinning, because chords didn't exist at that time. So those modes DID create a "mood".

If my guitar player is playing an A minor vamp, and I improvise in the notes of C Ionian, it's not going to sound like Ionian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian, because the guitars harmonic underpinning is defining the sound. If I choose to play higher in the register during that A minor vamp, and play a line based on the G Mixolydian mode (shape, whatever) it's not going to sound Mixolydian. It's going to sound like A Aeolian.

Well, why is that? Where is the mood? There's no mood, because all of the modes are all the exact same notes... How can C Ionian sound different than G Mixolydian, if they are all the same notes? I'm not creating a mood, I'm just playing a line over a certain harmonic structure. I can play any mode I want, and that structure will remain constant. Playing over a structure is the modern use of modes.

Incidental, what I'm talking about is not about playing G Mixolydian over G7 chords or that stuff. It's about doing what you want in a musical way.

There are certain kinds of chords that can create a "Mood" based on the way they are voiced and the extensions they contain, but that's a different application than plain vanilla diatonic modes. This is where you get into Harmonic and Melodic minor scales. That's a whole different topic.

If you transcribe a Jimmy Haslip solo, which I've done several, you will see that what he plays, is based almost exclusively on diatonic modal shapes determined simply by what he wants to hear at the time and in whatever register he wants to play in. The entire concept is really incredibly simple. It's just muddied up.

Also, I'm at a stage where I can make my own determinations about how I get "inside" music. It's probably a little different than someone else's way of doing things. I have a very long way to go, but I think I can see the road ahead.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

There's no mood, because all of the modes are all the exact same notes... How can C Ionian sound different than G Mixolydian, if they are all the same notes?

I disagree with your statement. I know why, I know why you think there are no modes, but there is no need to talk about it anymore. I've spent many hours providing many notes, many soundclips, etc., in this Forum.
Nothing has changed. Nobody has learned. It's just waste of time. No wonder SteveCS - a very knowledgeable on Modes TB member does not participate in this discussion.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I disagree with your statement. I know why, I know why you think there are no modes, but there is no need to talk about it anymore. I've spent many hours providing many notes, many soundclips, etc., in this Forum.
Nothing has changed. Nobody has learned. It's just waste of time. No wonder SteveCS - a very knowledgeable on Modes TB member does not participate in this discussion.

Hey that's fine! My determinations are made for what I've learned and how I choose to use the information. You are quite free to see it how you want. And actually I never said there are no modes. I said there are no "moods". However, now that I think about it, you gave me a light bulb moment!

There are no modes. There's just one huge scale. Thank you! But personally I have a fair idea about how Steve thinks about modes. At least as much as I can tell from his posts. And quite honestly, I don't care how other people want to think about it. As I already mentioned, you can come at it however you want.

 

[Riff Ranger]

I've been playing music for decades, multiple instruments, multiple genres/styles, I've somehow never gotten around to learning the modes. But I want to improvise melodic bass lines (and actually lead-like lines behind my wife), so decided to start studying them. I wasn't even sure why other than "people say I should."

So for a few weeks I've been focusing on nothing other than Mixolydian vs. Lochrian vs. Whatthehellisallthisian and trying to internalize Anthony Wellington's comment about stop thinking about the application, just learn it. I still don't *really* know why I'm learning it, but I keep going.

Ya'll remember that part of Harry Potter before he learns he's a magician when crazy stuff happens around him? Yeah, that kinda happened last night.

My wife was practicing a song I'd never heard of. I didn't know the key and usually I would have her print out or tell me the key and/or chord chart. But I quietly figured out a few notes while she was playing and thought "This feels like Locrian." Suddenly, the camera shifted, and the lights dimmed, and the world turned inside out.

All the notes were lit up and laid out on my bass. I was just playing with her. Not perfect, but I was there! I still didn't know what key the song was in, but I could just play. After a minute, I realized I could pay attention to the tension of the song rather than know the chord, and feel like I knew where in the pattern to play. Here's tension, here's release. I didn't even really know the notes I was playing.

Then she stopped, and the camera shifted back to normal.

Ya'll that was scary!

I remember someone here saying the modes "are not scales" and I'm starting to understand why they said that. I mean, it's just a scale, but it's not. I started studying modes thinking "This is sort of dumb, I could just be practicing scales, this is the same thing." But it's really not. If the scales are like science, the modes are like dangerous black magic.

I started with modes and never got much further, haha. Glad to know my 12-year-old self was onto something that my 39-year-old self should probably look into a bit deeper! Thank you for the nudge. I love black magic.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I disagree with your statement. I know why, I know why you think there are no modes, but there is no need to talk about it anymore. I've spent many hours providing many notes, many soundclips, etc., in this Forum.
Nothing has changed. Nobody has learned. It's just waste of time. No wonder SteveCS - a very knowledgeable on Modes TB member does not participate in this discussion.

So now, I'm curious... Why do I think there are no modes? I mean, you might be right. I do know that I think about modes in the same way that Steve Vai does, but hey, He could be wrong too. What does he know?

 

[mambo4]

Do I want to play high or low? If I want to play low, I can play Ionian based pitch collection. If I want to play high I can use phrygian or maybe mixolydian pitch collection.

I think I get what your saying, although it kind of sounds like modes are reduced to a fingering trick for playing the same scale in various registers. Seems an incomplete explanation. When Wooten explains how he understood Dorian as "the James Brown scale" he certainly wasn't seeing it as the same sound as its relative Ionian.

I trust Rick Beato, and interestingly he sort of says both: Modes teach where the notes are, and give you sounds.

 

[Spin Doctor]

When Wooten explains how he understood Dorian as "the James Brown scale"

ALL funk is in either Dorian, Phyrigian or Aeolian... That's what he means. There is no "major key" funk. This was a revelation to me, once I got it. Try it for yourself. Learn about 150 funk tunes then come talk to me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I trust Rick Beato, and interestingly he sort of says both: Modes teach where the notes are, and give you sounds.

This is the takeaway. However you get to that point is irrelevant. But I like Rick also. His stuff makes sense.