The Ol’ Audio Interface Dilemma

[Brennan]

Hey Folks,

I was about to pull the trigger on a UA Apollo X but I thought I would check in with Silky Smoove and the rest of the community.

I usually record at a studio with Burl, Neve etc. Upright in a nice room with good mics and pre’s. I’m trying to send stems to people from my home setup and I want to get as close as possible. I use various basses through an Arkham pre and have a boutique contact pickup with an additional Warm Audio Fet Mic for the upright.

I’m using a Scarlett Interface, that I feel is my weak link, into logic. It seems like a lot of people are using the UA with the vintage compressors and channel strip etc. I also heard people love the sound coming out of the Luna DAW, but that was in the context of mixing.

All I care about is the best possible signal chain, conversion into two channels for sending high quality stems to the producers. Good compression in the box would be nice as well. I use headphones to mix.

I was somewhat intrigued by the Audient ID14 because you can bypass the internal mic pre’s and use your own.

My budget is about $1k. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Which Scarlett do you have. Some have TRS line inputs which bypass the pres. If you have that, I'd go with a couple channels ofic pres.

 

[Brennan]

Which Scarlett do you have. Some have TRS line inputs which bypass the pres. If you have that, I'd go with a couple channels ofic pres.

I have the first generation 2 input. Doesn’t that still use the inferior AD converters?

 

[And I]

From what I know (only book / reading knowledge) Burl converters aren't meant to be nice and clean, they have a (desireable) color to them? The Apollo converters are quite clean, and probably among the best you're going to find in your price range. They are a step up from the AD/DA in pro-sumer audio interfaces. Once you start looking at Lynx, Crane Song, Burl, etc... it's 3x your budget just for AD/DA.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

I have the first generation 2 input. Doesn’t that still use the inferior AD converters?

I don't know the answer to that.

The Audient ID14 can't bypass the internal pres as best I can tell. The ID22 can by using the insert return, which goes straight to the ADC.

Even the Apollo Twin X doesn't bypass the mic preamps when using the line in.

To me, being able to have a +4 Line Level Input is important, but it may not be for you. I can use an external preamp, go straight out from a pro compressor or EQ, or just a tube balanced line driver without hitting any unnecessary, duplicate circuitry. The RME Babyface Pro is pretty versatile. You're losing the UAD plugin accelerator, but getting a superb interface with great ADCs. 2 Mic inputs and 2 balanced line inputs, plus ADAT expansion. Then you can buy an external preamp if you want something that has a different color.

 

[silky smoove]

I thought I would check in with Silky Smoove

I have been summoned!

I usually record at a studio with Burl, Neve etc. Upright in a nice room with good mics and pre’s.

The high end gear is nice, but the 'nice room' and the skill of the recording engineer who mics your upright will be the biggest differences. How is your space for recording, and are you confident in your abilities to mic the upright in a pleasing way?

I use various basses through an Arkham pre and have a boutique contact pickup with an additional Warm Audio Fet Mic for the upright.

It sounds like you've got a nice front end to your signal chain. Which Warm mic do you have? Is it their take on a 47?

I’m using a Scarlett Interface, that I feel is my weak link, into logic.

It could be the weak link, but don't write it off just because it isn't very expensive. Modern consumer grade conversion is still more than sufficient for delivering great sound. The term "great" in this case means that it is accurate. If you're using the Scarlett in conjunction with the Arkham preamp just be sure and set the Scarlett to unity gain so that the cascading signal path of two preamps in series doesn't get overly colored by the second one (i.e. the Scarlett).

It seems like a lot of people are using the UA with the vintage compressors and channel strip etc.

Later in your post you say that you're sending stems to a producer. There might be some terminology issues here. Are you sending audio files or stems? Are you sending these to a mix engineer or a producer? I'm going to assume that you're sending audio files to a mix engineer. If that's the case, then I would not send something that has had DSP applied. Let the mix engineer make those decisions. Just get a good clean capture.

I also heard people love the sound coming out of the Luna DAW

That's just more DSP that you should let the mix engineer address. Traditionally DAWs have not had a baked-in sound, which could be easily confirmed through null tests. Luna appears to have a lot of UA "stuff" baked into it in a similar fashion to how Harrison MixBus operates. If you're not the mix engineer I would stay away from things that should be addressed by the mix engineer.

All I care about is the best possible signal chain, conversion into two channels for sending high quality stems to the producers. Good compression in the box would be nice as well.

This is all covered in my earlier comments (i.e. differences between stems and audio files, producers and mix engineers, making DSP-based decisions ahead of sending, etc.), so I'll just summarize by saying that as a mix engineer and occasional producer myself; I want to be the one to make those types of decisions unless it's something that is absolutely critical to the recorded tone. If you're just trying to get a nice sounding bass sound then I would send the best recorded version I could with no additional DSP applied in the box. The engineer and likely the producer, if there is one, will be much happier if they receive that than they would if they received something that had already been messed with. I know I would!

 

[Brennan]

Thanks Silky! Great answers. I think to sum it up, the sound I get in the studio is fantastic, direct with the electric and direct/Neumann mics on the upright. At home, I’m usually in a position where I send audio files to a producer who is often the mix engineer as well. Where I struggle, and you referenced, is whether to and how much to step on it before I send the files. I like the idea of using some gentle compression and eq to track. It seems appealing but I’m hesitant to do that in Logic but not as much with UAD where I can track with high quality plugins. I also want to send the highest quality dry signal, maybe it’s me but I feel like I can hear the lower quality in the Scarlett, meaning the lack of warmth and saturation and a bit of digital bite. I feel committed to upgrading, at least to the next level, like an SSL, Audient, Clarett etc. I’m wondering if I should go further to the UAD stuff.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Thanks Silky! Great answers. I think to sum it up, the sound I get in the studio is fantastic, direct with the electric and direct/Neumann mics on the upright. At home, I’m usually in a position where I send audio files to a producer who is often the mix engineer as well. Where I struggle, and you referenced, is whether to and how much to step on it before I send the files. I like the idea of using some gentle compression and eq to track. It seems appealing but I’m hesitant to do that in Logic but not as much with UAD where I can track with high quality plugins. I also want to send the highest quality dry signal, maybe it’s me but I feel like I can hear the lower quality in the Scarlett, meaning the lack of warmth and saturation and a bit of digital bite. I feel committed to upgrading, at least to the next level, like an SSL, Audient, Clarett etc. I’m wondering if I should go further to the UAD stuff.

UAD plugins are mostly rebranded plugins made by other companies. You can buy the originals much cheaper and use them with any interface and DAW. Brainworx is one company that does quite a few for them. With Black Friday sales coming up, you'll be able to buy them for $30-50 each instead of $300 for the UAD branded.

Have you talked to the engineer you'll be sending the tracks to? Talk to them about exactly what they want. Given the choice between a raw signal and one that is processed, but will require additional processing, I bet they'll prefer the raw tracks.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't learn more about processing. Your best bet would be to pay the engineer a few hours of their time and have them come over and show you exactly how they would record with the equipment and room that you have.

 

[silky smoove]

UAD plugins are mostly rebranded plugins made by other companies. You can buy the originals much cheaper and use them with any interface and DAW. Brainworx is one company that does quite a few for them. With Black Friday sales coming up, you'll be able to buy them for $30-50 each instead of $300 for the UAD branded.

Have you talked to the engineer you'll be sending the tracks to? Talk to them about exactly what they want. Given the choice between a raw signal and one that is processed, but will require additional processing, I bet they'll prefer the raw tracks.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't learn more about processing. Your best bet would be to pay the engineer a few hours of their time and have them come over and show you exactly how they would record with the equipment and room that you have.

This is all EXCELLENT advice.

 

[silky smoove]

I feel committed to upgrading, at least to the next level, like an SSL, Audient, Clarett etc. I’m wondering if I should go further to the UAD stuff.

If you want to upgrade your front end (i.e. everything before the converters) then the SSL is a good choice as is the Audient. It won't be life-changing, but you might get a little more out of it. Especially the SSL with its baked in voicing switches. If you want to upgrade your back end (i.e. the converters), the units you listed will be a tiny bit better and you probably won't notice the difference. The UAD stuff is only a marginal increase above those as you're paying for the built-in DSP more than anything. If you want better converters look to MOTU and RME.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

It's not as fun and exciting as other gear, but you might consider spending some of your budget on acoustic treatments. Even if it's just some bass traps for the corners and maybe a movable broadband absorption panel. Can make a big difference on an upright in a relatively small room. Every big city has acoustic consultants. This, of course, is assuming you haven't already done so, which may be presumptuous on my part.

 

[silky smoove]

Every big city has acoustic consultants.

Yep! Also, GIK offers this as a free service for their products. You can then use that information and apply it to any brand or DIY variant of acoustic treatments provided you can figure out the function and specs of the products they suggest.

 

[Brennan]

UAD plugins are mostly rebranded plugins made by other companies. You can buy the originals much cheaper and use them with any interface and DAW. Brainworx is one company that does quite a few for them. With Black Friday sales coming up, you'll be able to buy them for $30-50 each instead of $300 for the UAD branded.

Have you talked to the engineer you'll be sending the tracks to? Talk to them about exactly what they want. Given the choice between a raw signal and one that is processed, but will require additional processing, I bet they'll prefer the raw tracks.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't learn more about processing. Your best bet would be to pay the engineer a few hours of their time and have them come over and show you exactly how they would record with the equipment and room that you have.

Great point Frank. Thanks for the plugin info. Yea, the producers generally like it unprocessed but it kills me not to notch out some of those frequencies on upright and maybe do some things that I think represent my playing. My Macbook Pro is older as well so I’m a little concerned about DSP. I appreciate the feedback. Thanks

 

[Brennan]

It's not as fun and exciting as other gear, but you might consider spending some of your budget on acoustic treatments. Even if it's just some bass traps for the corners and maybe a movable broadband absorption panel. Can make a big difference on an upright in a relatively small room. Every big city has acoustic consultants. This, of course, is assuming you haven't already done so, which may be presumptuous on my part.

It's not as fun and exciting as other gear, but you might consider spending some of your budget on acoustic treatments. Even if it's just some bass traps for the corners and maybe a movable broadband absorption panel. Can make a big difference on an upright in a relatively small room. Every big city has acoustic consultants. This, of course, is assuming you haven't already done so, which may be presumptuous on my part.

Yep! Also, GIK offers this as a free service for their products. You can then use that information and apply it to any brand or DIY variant of acoustic treatments provided you can figure out the function and specs of the products they suggest.

That’s definitely a good idea. I’m not sure how much space I have to work with but maybe I’ll borrow a few things to see what works. I’m sure I could get some of the wolfey out of the room. Thanks so much

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Yep! Also, GIK offers this as a free service for their products. You can then use that information and apply it to any brand or DIY variant of acoustic treatments provided you can figure out the function and specs of the products they suggest.

That's good to know. The wife just approved a preliminary study on a backyard music room.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

That’s definitely a good idea. I’m not sure how much space I have to work with but maybe I’ll borrow a few things to see what works. I’m sure I could get some of the wolfey out of the room. Thanks so much

In my opinion, the importance of all the things which affect your final sound is Bass > Room > Mic > Preamp > ADC

Great point Frank. Thanks for the plugin info. Yea, the producers generally like it unprocessed but it kills me not to notch out some of those frequencies on upright and maybe do some things that I think represent my playing. My Macbook Pro is older as well so I’m a little concerned about DSP. I appreciate the feedback. Thanks

The Brainworx stuff is available at plugin-alliance.com Do not pay full price; they run 8-10 sales a year. They'll send a code to your email to get almost any plugin for $30. Usually if you use your coupon on the first couple days, they'll let you use it again. But if you wait, you only get to use it once. They just had their halloween sale and they had 3 codes over the week long sale. If you want one of their plugins, wait until you have a code. Download the demos, see what you like and then when you have a $30 coupon, purchase.

 

[silky smoove]

Yea, the producers generally like it unprocessed but it kills me not to notch out some of those frequencies on upright and maybe do some things that I think represent my playing.

It's easy to get caught up in trying to fix all of those little things before someone starts to mix it. As a mix engineer myself I'll just say that I often want all of those frequencies in-place so that I can use just as much of them as I want in a mix, or make the decision to actively remove them. Sometimes those ugly frequencies, when blended against a mix with all the other pieces of the arrangement in-place, end up sounding really nice and get the instrument to stand out. If they're gone before the mix engineer receives them they never have a chance. I'm also a big fan of committing to a tone on the way in, which is obviously at odds with this thought process. It's a vicious cycle

My Macbook Pro is older as well so I’m a little concerned about DSP.

All the more reason not to mess with something after the fact

The wife just approved a preliminary study on a backyard music room.

As an environmental engineer who works for a local government I'm loving the notion of getting wife-approval for a preliminary study on a backyard music room. Be sure to file for your State Environmental Policy Act, perform a cultural resources study, confirm that there are no critical areas listed in your local ordinances, and... you see where I'm going with all of these bureaucracy jokes

In my opinion, the importance of all the things which affect your final sound is Bass > Room > Mic > Preamp > ADC

I agree. You might be able to switch the order of importance between room and mic if you're using a very specific mic in a very specific way on a specific source, but aside from that outlier/exception I would agree with your order.

The Brainworx stuff is available at plugin-alliance.com Do not pay full price;

I'm going to watch for this. I've never really dug into Plugin Alliance before. Brainworx makes this Amek EQ 200 which is supposed to be a mastering EQ, but I watched the great Andrew Scheps use it (the UAD version) on his 2buss for mid-side EQ in a way that was REALLY smart. I've been using Crave DSP's EQ to do more or less the same thing, but I would love to try and recreate Andrew's workflow on that.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

As an environmental engineer who works for a local government I'm loving the notion of getting wife-approval for a preliminary study on a backyard music room. Be sure to file for your State Environmental Policy Act, perform a cultural resources study, confirm that there are no critical areas listed in your local ordinances, and... you see where I'm going with all of these bureaucracy jokes


I agree. You might be able to switch the order of importance between room and mic if you're using a very specific mic in a very specific way on a specific source, but aside from that outlier/exception I would agree with your order.

I've browsed your build thread, so I know your headaches you had. Fortunately I'm on a flat lot with no trees. Somewhere in the 300-350 sq ft range. Single large room, maybe with a small vocal/amp booth.

 

[silky smoove]

Somewhere in the 300-350 sq ft range. Single large room, maybe with a small vocal/amp booth.

That'll be great! My space is 336sf (14'x24') and it works remarkably well. I even built a 3' wide storage vestibule that eats into the 24' length, and there's plenty of space for my mix desk, a full drum kit, amps, etc. Before the pandemic I used to hold a weekly 6-person rehearsal in a space that size. It's not spacious with six people, but it's still functional.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

That'll be great! My space is 336sf (14'x24') and it works remarkably well. I even built a 3' wide storage vestibule that eats into the 24' length, and there's plenty of space for my mix desk, a full drum kit, amps, etc. Before the pandemic I used to hold a weekly 6-person rehearsal in a space that size. It's not spacious with six people, but it's still functional.

I've been sharing a room in a rehearsal facility that is 165 sq ft. Tough to do a 6 piece Bossa Nova band in that small a space.