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The rhythm section - locking in with drums

#101
Whousedtoplay said:
1. The definition of "pocket playing" from the words of Dennis Chambers.
"When Dennis first joined P-Funk, George Clinton didn't want him to play directly on the click, he wanted it a little behind, just so it lagged a little but was still in time. Thus, the term he coined was play it "in the pocket".

And

2. "Regardless the setting you’re in, what genre of music you’re playing or the instrument you play in, what you’re playing has a “musical center” that is referred to as the pocket. In essence, the music is centered. Nothing is moving ahead of anything else or behind anything else; everything is moving along together.
"“Generally, the pocket is the perfect synchronicity of the bass drum and the bass guitar. When applied to an entire band, it’s about everyone playing in perfect time, with attitude...
Click to expand...

I like George Clinton's explanation best. Playing slightly behind the beat has particular importance (in some cases) for the bassist, because the attack of bass notes tend to have a longer delay -- from no sound to maximum sound -- than on other instruments. Also, some speakers react slower than other. If you are working with speakers that react slowly (especially during the time of Clinton), then a bass player would have to play before the beat so that when the down beat finally occurs, the bass sound is has reached its maximum volume.

I remember when I was in high school band, tuba players were taught to play slightly before the beat for the same reason: if they articulated on the beat, the sounding note would feel ahead of the beat, and since the bass has to support the harmonies, it's crucial to have it sounding on the beat.

Also, there's a certain feel to a rhythm that has instruments articulating the beat at slightly different times while maintaining the tempo. Blues, jazz, and funk, are only a few examples. One that I think of a lot is the rapping of Snoop Doggy Dogg in the 90s (not Lion). When you hear him rap, he has a "laid back" style. He tends to rap slightly behind the beat, but he is never out of time. That's a particular style that I've noticed in him.

So if the second definition, as the music as "centered" means anything, it means that everyone is in the same tempo, but perhaps not everyone is articulating it at the exact same moment. So in a way, the second definition is no definition at all: "centered" just means "in tempo" (not speeding up or falling behind (overall, though perhaps there can be that from measure to measure while still being "in tempo" (where "out-of-tempo" would mean a complete disaster with regard to tempo and cause gross poly-tempos (though that could be cool if that's what you're into)))). To create "the perfect synchronicity of the bass drum and the bass guitar," the bass would have to play slightly behind the kick so that the kick articulates the attack of the bass as it ramps up to its maximum volume.

"In the pocket" then would mean to play slightly behind the drums.
If my assertion is correct, that it has to do with the attack of the electric bass that requires the metaphor "in the pocket," and that playing the behind the beat was more crucial at a time when many speakers articulated slower than others, perhaps many faster-articulating speakers would make a bass player play less behind the beat to achieve the best pocket positioning.
 
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#102
danyosound said:
because the attack of bass notes tend to have a longer delay -- from no sound to maximum sound -- than on other instruments. Also, some speakers react slower than other. If you are working with speakers that react slowly...then a bass player would have to play before the beat so that when the down beat finally occurs, the bass sound is has reached its maximum volume.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but this sounds like hogwash to me, especially the "speakers reacting slowly" bit.
Did any amp company really make speakers with enough delay to force players to play ahead of the beat to compensate?
Similarly , I'm pretty sure the attack of a bass note happens at speeds where the difference is timbral, not rhythmic.

In an orchestra tubas and basses are in the back , maybe 10 meters from the conductor, with the speed of sound that's about a 30 millisecond delay.
combine that with the horse cart reaction speed of human beings in an orchestra against the conductor's baton,
and you are looking at more important acoustic and human factors than some some mythical delay in bass frequencies
 
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#103
When I'm playing Country, I use the hi-hat to keep time, but I always want to lock in with the kick drum. I love when the kick sounds like the attack from my bass.

When I'm playing rock, I lock in with the hats.
 
#105
mambo4 said:
I'm sorry, but this sounds like hogwash to me, especially the "speakers reacting slowly" bit.
Did any amp company really make speakers with enough delay to force players to play ahead of the beat to compensate?
Similarly , I'm pretty sure the attack of a bass note happens at speeds where the difference is timbral, not rhythmic.

In an orchestra tubas and basses are in the back , maybe 10 meters from the conductor, with the speed of sound that's about a 30 millisecond delay.
combine that with the horse cart reaction speed of human beings in an orchestra against the conductor's baton,
and you are looking at more important acoustic and human factors than some some mythical delay in bass frequencies
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert on the manner. It was an hypothesis, since many TBers talk about fast response vs slow response. If the issue was negligible, there wouldn't be one. Either way, you seem to misunderstand, since you referred to a "mythical delay in bass frequencies." I made no much claim about the speed of bass frequencies -- since all sound travels at the same speed -- I only meant the mechanics of bass speaker drivers that might vary from one type to another (in conjunction with other factors) as part of a history of bass amplification technology from George Clinton to the present.

Here are a few examples:
Slow vs Fast Speakers | TalkBass.com
Fast transit 15" ? | TalkBass.com

But what really excites me is that after your abuse, you were bothered enough to quote me in a new nerdy topic.

Please Bust this myth: "Slow" speakers and "Slow" bass attack | TalkBass.com

Either way, I'm not afraid to be wrong, and I'm not afraid to change my mind when I'm presented with convincing evidence.
Perhaps it's a bit cowardly to not share your findings with us in this thread.

Conclusion:
The response of speaker drivers has no discernible relevance to the attack transients on electric bass. My hypothesis was wrong.
 
#109
Another way to think about it. I play piano. It gives you a way to think about percussion. Your left hand and right hand don't do the same thing and don't always hit the 1 or the 3 together. But they have to fit together and reinforce each other rhythmically. If they don't - if they just do their own things, or worse, fight, it's an ugly mess. If they do fit tightly in a balanced, move it forward, create the rhythmic frame way, they reinforce each other and it's great. It doesn't require duplicating each other or being unison. It does require creating one rhythm together.

The good drummers I know think this way because they are not just banging and crashing the most noise possible. They are putting together two hands and two feet worth of ingredients in a way the fits together, each piece playing a role. Listen to a good jazz drummer to hear some real artistry.

Of course, if your hands don't listen to each other, or if they fight for time or sonic space, you have a problem that goes beyond laying down a bad rhythm bed.
 
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#110
There was someone on this forum saying that drummers are taught to play the snare (beats 2 and 4) behind the beat. Can't find it right now. Could anyone elaborate on it?
Because it's exactly how I hear it. The one (often a bass drum and bass note) is the reference, the "right on the beat", it IS the beat, the snare is slightly behind the beat (you you can hear it in your head just before it strikes, adding an instant of delicious tension) and hi-hats or subdivision with a certain quantity of swing in 8th or in 16th.
 
#111
I have a few rambling thoughts on the matter.

I have always tried to lock in with the kick, and that doesn't mean hitting absolutely every single beat. I used to look at the drummers foot, I now get enough of the vibe from the overall drums to sound good without it.

The bass while grooving follows the kick, but in other sections may follow other things. I spend significant time doubling guitars, I spend a lot of time following vocals. (Seems to be a feature of the music I play that various instruments follow the vocal line at different points).

If there are accents you need to hit them. For example: 'schools out' where the drum and bass hit an accent each 4 bars of the verse. We are starting with a new drummer and he brings those accents in faster than the previous drummer - it still sounds good but I really need to concentrate to hit them when he does. During the chorus the bass needs to be locked in with whichever drum is doing the roll (could be the snare or the floor tom depending on drummer).

My basic thought is to learn the song and then know what your drummer is going to do as it can effect your performance.
 
#112
Whousedtoplay said:
Do you mean - "faster" as some timing accuracy issues?
(Unless you are playing some Romany music.)



Per your words,
the bass players are to LEARN songs, but the drummers can do/play anything they want.
(???)
Click to expand...

In terms of accuracy, it is exactly the same each time. It is not a different beat to what our previous drummer did, it is at the very beginning of the subdivision that is it should land on. Our previous drummer put the beat lazily at the end of that subdivision. Our new drummer pushes where our old drummer pulled. Aggressive vs. passive???

My wording in the last paragraph is pretty awful and non sensical. I was sort of just saying to know how your drummer works rather than just relying on knowing the part. In the example above, our drummer is more difficult to learn how to work with, but the results are far better sounding and the music drives more than it has before.
 
#113
It is also a case of who follows who. Not that everyone shouldn't be on the case and in time anyway.

I spent a couple of years being the time keeper in a band with a horrible drummer. Where I could I set the pace, where I couldn't I listened and tried to not cause a train wreck. At least the drums kept in time with the vocals as it was a singing drummer.
 
#114
If you lock in with the kick (and snare), you're locking in with the macrobeat (1/4 notes), and that is a lot easier to keep consistent tempo than playing to the microbeat that the cymbals are usually doing (1/8th and /16ths). When you concentrate on the faster moving notes of the microbeat, it harder to notice if the tempo starts rushing or dragging. But when you play to the kick and snare, you play to the beat that the listener feels (and moves to), and it's easier to feel the actual groove of the song.
 
#115
Whousedtoplay said:
I've tried to understand your comment but miserably failed.

Here is my opinion.
In order to become more time accurate and "lock in" with the drummer (I'm talking about a good drummer)
- SUBDIVIDE.
If you have a quarter note - think about about it as four 16th's.
If you have timing accuracy "issues" while playing at a slower tempo - subdivide (count as) that Quarter note like eight 32th's, etc...

Anyway, all Groove, Feel, articulation nuances are hidden in the Subdivision.
Click to expand...

Yes, subdividing is great, and everyone needs to be able to do that to play effectively.. but it's best to feel the macrobeat for tempo, just as the people in the crowd feel the beat of the kick and snare (and not every subdivision of the cymbals). If you play to 1/16th notes (and concentrate on them as much or even more than the quarter note), the tempo is usually inconsistent for most people. So if you bob your head and tap your foot to the kick and snare, and play to that beat, the subdivisions should just fall into place pretty naturally (especially if you know how to count "1 e and a"). I've worked with so many drummers that tend to lead with their hi hats instead of the kick and snare, and their tempos are usually screwy (unless the song calls specifically for that type of feel - so there are some exceptions). But once they learn the kick and snare are the meat and potatoes of the beat, the hi hats will just fall into place - as long as they know how to subdivide the macrobeat. And it's the same for the bass player.

In other words.. you still count everything, but when you count it ONE e and a, TWO e and a.. as opposed to ONE E AN A, TWO E AND A, the feel and the tempo will usually stay much more consistent. Hope that makes more sense. :)
 
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#116
Whousedtoplay said:
I've probably again misunderstood your opinion.
Let's take a simple country music pattern.
The drummer has a 1-bar or 2-bar rhythm pattern that REPEATS itself,
plus some (subtle) rhythmic variations for intro/outro/Verse2/Chorus/bridge(if any), etc...
without destroying that groove, feel, rhythmic contour,
plus the Hi-hat could be replaced with the Cymbal, or the Snare could be played as the Rimshot, etc..., plus some fills (NO UNEXPECTED FILLS DURING PERFORMANCE),
and of course,
some accents - simple or more complex/"tutti" passages together with the bass/or bass & guitar/or with other musicians. I cannot emphasize how important are those accents/fills/passages to be played by the drummer with the bass player and/or other musicians.
It could be just a simple syncopated Crash cymbal (unexpected for the listener) played together with the bass or/and with other musicians, or
the same syncopated Crash cymbal "tutti" accent with very specific length requirement - let's say, it should last only one 16th note followed by the 8th rest where all instruments start and end that very simple accent together.
My biggest pet peeve is when ALL instruments after that accent have the rest/pause but the drummer's crash sound is still lasting.

That kind of, even simple "tutti"/together accents makes a good Band (IMHO).
The bands dynamics articulated by all musicians at the right time is a sign of a truly good Band.
(I've got distracted, sorry.)

Let's get back to that simple drummer's country music pattern with some variations, developments, tutti, accents, dynamics - all (with some exceptions for a GOOD DRUM PLAYER) of it SHOULD BE KNOWN IN ADVANCE TO OTHER MUSICIANS, especially the Bass Player.
Now, I'd like for the drummer to show to me that country music rhythm pattern with some variations, developments, tutti, accents, dynamics is grooving and has the right "feel", without timing inaccuracies.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JAZZ DRUMMING!!!

I will repeat one more time.
The drums in "LITE" music is THE rhythmic foundation of a song;
therefore,
Hey, drummer, don't like playing rhythmic pattern and GROOVE - learn the Flute and become a Soloist.
Hey, drummer, if your part in the band is the rhythmic foundation of a song, then,
you should understand that by changing your drum rhythm pattern, you are changing the FEEL of the song. You want to practice - do it at home not while performing with the band.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that having read this three times I don't understand how it relates to the comment I made, particularly the mentions of country vs. jazz vs. LITE music drumming?

In the band I am in now we have previously been, and will be again (with new drummer) at the point where every nuance of fills etc. are known.

My comment on who follows who particularly referred to a band I was in where I had to be the time keeper. The drummer wasn't up to the job.

I'll make a comment that Ringo never plays a song the same twice. He considers fills to be his form of expression.
 
#117
Fascinating discussion, and I really appreciate reading the *different* takes on what it all means. My own interpretation is: playing well with the rest of the ensemble in a musical, cooperative way that transcends the music to approach that magical, mystical place to which we all aspire. Or something like that. LOL I've been there in a few organizations a few times. You know, when it all just >clicks<. That's when its IN THE POCKET.

I'm going to share this thread with the drummer for the band I'm in now. The guy's a machine, but I'm having a hard time "locking in" with him, and I'm at a loss as to why. I'd like to see if he and I can get to a place where we're listening to each other and truly communicating more. My hope is that having read this, he and I can reach that place.
 
#119
Um, wow, Who, that's quite a list... I am seriously open to what my responsibilities may be as well.

By machine, I did not mean that he is overly busy or doesn't try to serve the song. In fact, his sense of time is very steady and I can rely on him to be on the one. And the two. And wherever he needs to be. What I am looking for from him (and we are working on it, believe me!) is a communication; visual, aural, or something, to give each other a sense, a feeling, of where we're going to go together. I'm coming to think that, for us, it is a process that will take time playing together. I'm the only guy in the band with any formal music training. The others are competent at what they do. I guess you could say we are slowly (after a while of playing together), finally gelling. A journey, to be sure, which is why I chimed in here.

I encourage him to listen to me just as I'm listening to him. Thanks for your feedback.
 
#120
Whousedtoplay, I assume you are posting these for feedback.
FWIW , I think your first attempt is fighting with the kick drum a lot, and I would not consider it "locking" with the drums.
It's mostly playing "over" the pattern and very little playing "with"

I might be textbook case for the band aid suggestion of play exactly what the kick plays
But I would rather suggest mimic the kick rhythm every 2 or 4 bars and otherwise let your ideas fly.
There is also room for longer held notes.

If there were vocals or a melody as well I'd suggest simplifying even more
 
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