The rhythm section - locking in with drums

[eric_B]

Ed Friendland mentions this in his book: "When bass and drums play together, they need to connect their parts so that it feels like one unified beat. The term "locking in to the groove" is used to describe this phenomenon."
Sums it up pretty well I think.

Having played drums for 7 years and now starting with bass, I think both the bass player and drummer have to interact with each other.
For some songs and styles of music, the bass melody seems leading and drums are following and for others vice verse. It's playing for the song or groove.
Most important is that bass notes and drum hits that should be heard at the same time sync well.
Otherwise it will sound sloppy.

 

[4stringsofwonder]

I'm not sure if this is a question, an observation, or a rant. I am very curious to hear what you guys think though... and I hope I don't offend anyone (oblig disclaimer: I do NOT mean to offend!)

How do you sync up with the drummer? As a drummer since before starting on bass, I know that my ride/hihat hand is my time-keeper, not to mention the base rhythm for a song. It's by far the best thing to lock onto as a bass player; however, I often hear (both here on talkbass and elsewhere) bass players saying "lock onto the kick drum"... but I never understood this philosophy.

The kick drum is often played on the one (first beat) in a lot of western music, true... but not always. In fact, I find it not all that predictable in my own playing (I'm by no means a drum god or anything, but bear with me here) and when it really is predicable, often the drummer sucks! It practically borders on dance music territory. It gets worse if it is a crappy drummer at all, because then his kick drum may not even be well timed with his own time-keeping hand.

More importantly though, the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT, not the RHYTHM. I think this is the core of my issue with the "lock onto the kick drum" train of thought - you'd be locking onto a beat instead of the rhythm the drums are layin' down.

Thoughts? Experiences? Opinions?

I guess by "locking" they could mean making sure to emphasise the same beats as the drummer is emphasising with the bass drum. The power of the bass drum can add a real thump to the bass notes you're playing. An example of this would be playing a four to the floor baseline over a four to the floor bass drum, it will sound tight and powerful. Of course, you might only want to use this occasionally to add variety, but synchronising certain notes with bass drum hits can really help the sound. Sometimes you have to think of the whole band as one instrument to get the most out of the sound.

 

[gmarcus]

If I lock with the bass drums on certain beats it tends to fatten up the groove. It doesn't have to be the same beat all the time. It can cycle though a number of beats. And definitely changes between verse, chorus and bridge. For me the secret sauce is ending the right notes just in time to let the snare, hat or rhythm guitar poke through. It helps lock the whole groove together.

 

[EdwardofHuncote]

I've just started learning to play bass with drums in the past couple years, so I try to read every related thread on TB, at least until they turn into... something I'd rather not read.

I like playing with drums/percussion, and can do so quite naturally. Click tracks in the studio never bothered me. Being used to playing bass primarily with rhythm guitar, it only became difficult when trying to focus upon any one element of the drums as a centerpoint for me to "lock" with.

I started using just drum and guitar backing tracks uploaded by different combinations of players to practice with, and sure enough - very soon I started to recognize individual patterns within their playing that made it either easier or harder to play bass along with. I could tell them apart just like I could the different rhythm guitar players.

In the course of things, a Christmas band I play in every year lucked into a trained percussionist who doubles on horns. *Click* the light went on... within minutes we were playing off each other's accented points. Grins all around... even got the rest of the band's attention. Then *they* started playing with *us* as a unit. It was one of the most profound moments I've ever had in almost 30 years of playing bass.

I lack the experience to know for certain if what I'm describing is related to playing in time with a kick drum or ride cymbal... I could do that too, but since stumbling onto the revelation that bass and drums will go together if you let them, the best result (for me at least) seems to come from just going on raw intuition and feel, rather than a forced conscious effort.

 

[Jamvan]

I hate to acknowledge in this room filled with very seasoned players but my approach has always been to mimic the snare and kick for timing and then listen to the rest of the band for duration of note (syncopated, gliss, rests, holds, etc). I will occasionally venture off and accent a vocal fill or guitar lick to add life to the song but only for short duration and then it's back to alignment with the snare/kick. I'd never considered the hi-hat but will try that tonight and see how it goes.

 

[drummer5359]

This is a fun discussion from where I sit. My primary instrument is and always has been drums. I dabbled with bass as a kid and came back to the instrument about five years ago.

I like how you articulate locking in. I just wanted to add in an idea that you and others may be familiar that I refer to as "dancing around each other". It's basically like your bass part becomes another drum rather than exactly matching a specific drum part. It still makes a complete and tight groove, just in a different way. It's kind of like how in bluegrass the bass acts like a kick, the mandolin chops on the snare hits etc.

I also pose this question to you guys: how often does your drummer decide to match to you instead of you matching to the drummer? All this talk of locking in with the drums always seems to imply we are slaves to whatever the drummer comes up with. What if you come up with a better groove, does the drummer follow you? My drummer work together on finding the best grooves for our songs but I wonder what others do.

Years ago I used to work with a drummer with whom I had a supernatural-seeming rhythmic bond. We could flawlessly improvise fills and time changes in unison without ever looking at each other. Sometimes we would even do it with no tempo or beat, just trying to randomly hit together without looking at each other or depending on a tempo. We were successful a shocking percentage of the time. It's been more than a couple of decades and I've not had that kind of "lock" with another drummer since.

I sometimes wonder if truly high-level players (Steve Gadd and Anthony Jackson for instance) can get together for the first time and have that incredible bond, immediately and consistently. When it happens, it's truly intoxicating - it literally feels like your feet have left the ground, like you're flying without exerting any effort.

To me the drums are a pulse of a band. Time keeping is a drummer's primary job, unfortunately some drummers never realize this. This does not mean that the drummer has to just play "thump, thump, thump" all day long. On some songs I specifically play the bass line with my bass drum. It gives the bassist room to move. When we are doubling the line it is rock solid. When he plays a fill, it is still rock solid. Dancing around and interplay between a drummer and bassist can be magic. If the song calls for a straight ahead beat, I'll gladly play that. It's my job to do what ever supports the song.

I've played with a LOT of bassists in the past forty years. I can make "it" feel good with almost any bassist, but when I get to play with a bassist who really get's it, magic happens. There is a bassist on this board who I've had the pleasure to work with in a couple of bands. When Mike and I lock in, it really is a wonderful thing. We can play any kind of music and make it groove right out of the gate.

Answering the OP's original question, the bass drum is the key.

Earlier in this thread some great advice was given. "When the drummer plays the kick, hit a note. When he hit's the snare you may want to hit a note."

That is simplifying it, but it works. When you and the drummer can lock in together and it is not obvious, that's when it really sounds magic.

I really appreciate a great bassist.

 

[Mystic Michael]

Imagine playing straight 8th notes. The rhythm is an 8th note pulse, but the beat of the song might be a dotted quarter pattern.

Take the 3-2 clave rhythm. Most people in an ensemble would not be playing that rhythm note for note. The beat of the song is a 3-2 clave, but the rhythms would most definitely be something else. However, the rhythm would line up so that it is hitting on the beat on occasion.

Take a four on the floor dance groove. The beat is most certainly felt on 1-2-3-4, yet you can play only upbeats and it would sound like it fits. You aren't playing any notes of the beat, but your rhythm is emphasizing the beat (in this case, with negative space).

The beat to me is the inherent heartbeat of the song. If you were to filter out all the extra stuff and boil it down to a handful of notes, this is what would make up the heartbeat. The rhythms of the members, and especially bass and drums, are there to emphasize the inherent heartbeat, and that might mean copying it directly or playing rhythms that hint at the underlying heartbeat.

You can define it however you want to. But if you define "beat" as separate from "rhythm", just recognize that this is a personal, individual interpretation of those concepts - and by no means any universally recognized distinction.

I get the basic point, it's not hard to grasp. But beat is actually a subset of rhythm - not something apart from it. Elements of rhythm other than the beat might include such things as the upbeat, accents, syncopation, and the like.

MM

 

[mambo4]

I think Rhythm itself has become a slippery term, over the years. I've seen it used to refer to:

• the basic beat / pulse /tempo
• the specific rhythmic pattern , independent of pitch (what I would call the correct meaning)
  
• a bass line or other repeated musical pattern
• the holistic combined patterns of the ensemble
• the magic woo that determines weather or not you can dance

The phrase "Locking with <whatever> " is even worse.
Like feel and groove it tends to accumulate quasi mystical interpretations.
better to break things down to specifics, ans avoid the slippery terminology.

 

[static0verdrive]

I think Rhythm itself has become a slippery term, over the years. I've seen it used to refer to:

• the basic beat / pulse /tempo
• the specific rhythmic pattern , independent of pitch (what I would call the correct meaning)
  
• a bass line or other repeated musical pattern
• the holistic combined patterns of the ensemble
• the magic woo that determines weather or not you can dance

The phrase "Locking with <whatever> " is even worse.
Like feel and groove it tends to accumulate quasi mystical interpretations.
better to break things down to specifics, ans avoid the slippery terminology.

Fair enough. I tend to agree, but for the purpose of this thread let's define rhythm as a repeated pattern within a tempo, but without pitch (a percussive pattern). The beats are the markers of the tempo if you will, the 1, 2, 3, & 4. Therefore "1, a 2, a 3, a 4" would be a shuffle rhythm, but "1, and a 2, and a 3, and a 4" would be a swing rhythm.

Within this context, I'd call the holistic combined patterns of the ensemble (the magic woo that determine whether or not you can dance) as the feel or groove.

 

[Crazy_Jake]

It's not you. Bass drums project their sound forwards and backwards, but not out/around/side-to-side like most of the rest of the kit. Unless you're standing in front of it (you're probably to the left or right of the drums, right?) you won't hear it very well. This is another great reason I forgot to mention why I don't bother trying to listen for the bass drum, and why I stand on the hihat side of the kit (the ride tends to be a little more audible, depending on the models of hihat & ride anyway).

When I was starting out I could never consistently hear the bass drum in live situations and moving onstage to the point where I could see the drummer's foot was not always an option so I learned to lock in with the snare and hi hat - you can always hear those two - even now 20+ years later I lock in with the snare and hi hat -I always have a tight groove and pocket and never any complaints - so long story short don't over think it - just lock in with what feels natural to you. If you drummer is good it will all work out in the end

 

[Crazy_Jake]

When I was 14 or so, we did our first studio recordings. We went to Memphis (and got to use the same board that Zep III was recorded on!) and after a couple of takes the producer took outside to the sidewalk and asked the drummer and I, "How long you been playin?" I said "About a year and a half, two years," and the drummer said about the same. He nodded and asked, "Do you know what it means to 'lock in' together, as bass and drums?" We both shrugged and he explained to us, "When the drummer hits the kick, you should hit a note. When the drummer hits the snare, you may want to hit a note. And if the drummer is doing neither, find out what the hell the drummer is doing and do that, too."

We took it to heart, and every single beat from the kick or snare was duplicated verbatim on bass. Of course I had my own things, and he had his own fills, etc., but as time went on and we got better those fills began to lock in beat for beat, note for note, tom for tom, through the entire roll. It didn't help that we were huge Rush fans, having discovered them when "Farewell to Kings" came out - it was Geddy and Neil, more than anyone, who lock in phenomenally in the same way. "Cities full of hatred, fear and lies..." That's it.

Fast forward to now. I'm privileged to play with an incredible drummer who is a Portnoy devotee, playing all of Transatlantic's catalog, most of Dream Theater's, all of Neal Morse and a good bit of Rush. His masters is in music and he teaches music full time, playing several instruments. We've been playing together for 7 years now, and are as tight as we can possibly be, meaning that when I pop a fourth lower of a root for emphasis and do it very quickly it's almost intuitive that he does it too with his kick (as found in Cinderella Man, for cryin out loud!) Note for note.

A cymbal may get picked up as a harmonic pop that hangs over a riff, the closed high hat might get duplicated as a high fast tapping thing or whatever. But if his kick is pulling triplets, the bass will be right on top, playing triplets, not straight time, even though that might line up (eventually). Now of course there are places without drums but have bass, and vice versa, and places where we pull back and funk it up a bit with some improv, but we've played together so long it's almost presciently doubled anyways). We go to great pains to insure that every fill on the drums is matched note on the bass (where and in what technique is up to me, but if he doesn't like what I'm doing I'll usually toss it), so I have to double very fast fills, and some with crazy splash cymbals or a timbale thrown in here or there. Keeps me on my toes.

Just last night at rehearsal, we were playing one of our new originals and he wanted to change something so that instead of JUST having the drums hit a whole note in the intro, the bass would (ta-da!) double it by hitting E on the 12th and dragging down to G on the 3rd in time and then fast muting. So we're still doing stuff to double one another.

There are places where the bass doesn't follow the drums but follows the guitar (Dream Theater's "Erotomania" for instance) and then locks back in with the drums in an unexpected way, and of course, lots of places where the band all lock in together for crazy stuff (again, Dream Theater comes to mind, and some of our originals as well).

But generally, the way it was explained to me all those years ago still fundamentally holds true: "When the drummer hits the kick, you should hit a note. When the drummer hits the snare, you may want to hit a note. And if the drummer is doing neither, find out what the hell the drummer is doing and do that, too."

That's lockin in to me. YMMV.

I remember reading an article at one point that outlined the same points you are saying - try to think of your bass as a drumset - mimic what the drums do on your bass ie maybe a muted note for a snare shot or short staccato notes to duplicate a roll - like Geddy and Neil do all the freaking time. Whatever sound the drummer is making feel free to duplicate that sound - somehow - somewhere on your bass

 

[jamro217]

A big part of locking in is the count. Once you know where the one is and the tempo isn't floating all around, it becomes everybody's responsibility to maintain the groove. There's nothing worse than a sloppy band. Drummers, bassists and other members of the "rhythm" section shouldn't have any difficulty playing a song tightly together if they are competent musicians. That being said, sometimes there are issues at gigs with monitors etc. where you lose that point of reference, that's when you have to look at the drummer's feet. One of the easiest ways to be a successful bassist is to be able to consistently play the root on the one.

 

[mambo4]

I briefly skimmed the responses so far and haven't seen any mention that it really matters what kind of music your playing.

I Have to quote this one because it's actually the answer:

"How" you "lock in" with the drummer depends almost entirely on genre.
Any well defined musical style will have an established tradition of what the drummer does and what the bass does.
Locking in a Reggae sing will require a different approach than Rock and roll, or jazz, or funk, or Salsa...

Context determines what works, not blanket approaches.

 

[eric_B]

Once again, the drummer plays the same rhythm pattern but the bass player controls the "feel."

I would say the drummer also plays a big part in the "feel" of a song.
A lot of great drummers are (and where) known for playing great "in the pocket".

Talking about locking in: it was one of the big reasons I quit my last band (as a drummer).
The bassist didn't listen to me and was rushing all the time, playing every note just before mine.
The strangest thing - even though I guess he had been playing for decades: he didn't hear a problem.

 

[BazzTard]

In all my bands, the drummers followed ME, how else can they keep time?

OK I'm joking, kinda, our first drummer was hopeless,he really did follow me.

You make a very good point regarding following the hi hat / ride hand, that can set the length of your notes, whole quarter or sixteenths.

Still, the kick is important to us bassists because usually the first downbeat of a measure is the one that gets the job done

 

[JimmyM]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

How boring my playing would be if I followed some of the "rules" set out in this thread. Keep good time, have a drummer that keeps good time, and you would be surprised what you can get away with. Go listen to Motown for prime examples of how Jamerson plays all over the drummer but still sounds amazingly tight with the drummer. I can think of plenty of examples of other bassists doing it as well.

There are times where you might want to play lockstep with the drummer's bass drum, but it's certainly not a requirement in all types of music.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I think Rhythm itself has become a slippery term, over the years. I've seen it used to refer to:

• the basic beat / pulse /tempo
• the specific rhythmic pattern , independent of pitch (what I would call the correct meaning)
  
• a bass line or other repeated musical pattern
• the holistic combined patterns of the ensemble
• the magic woo that determines weather or not you can dance

The phrase "Locking with <whatever> " is even worse.
Like feel and groove it tends to accumulate quasi mystical interpretations.
better to break things down to specifics, ans avoid the slippery terminology.

This is probably one of the few thing that I find the English language to be inadequate. Most of the time it is very concise and precise, it is easy to guess what the words mean when you don't know which isn't the case in French but ... when it comes to musical term, I find this language to be very inadequate and lack a lot of specific terms that other language have.

There most be a lot of people that never bothered to learn musical term and used them in whatever fashion ... like people calling every group of 3 a triplet ( let say to 16th note and a 8th note ).

This is part of the reason I hate so much people saying "lock with the drummers" just like it is the bass job to do that ... the guitar also lock with the drum, melody too ... everyone has to lock with the tempo.

anyway all that to say I'm with you on that one

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I briefly skimmed the responses so far and haven't seen any mention that it really matters what kind of music your playing. For instance, in jazz, the real time keeper of the groove is that walking bass line, the drummer technically should be locking in with the bass mans tempo or vice versa, the bass man can lock in with that ride cymbal and hi hat.

Now consider rock n' roll. It's all straight 8ths usually, so ya, that typical 8th note pattern on the hi hat is usually the metronome for those grooves, but this is where the bass man should 'lock in' with the kick drum. Here's simplified example of your standard 4/4 rock beat. Kick-snare-kick-kick-snare. Our bass lines should 'lock-in' or "emphasize" those kicks. it just sounds better to have the two lowest frequency instruments "locked-in." In this instance, "locking-in" with the kick is more about the groove and phrasing of your bassline than tempo. Now say the drums are more like, ki-kick-kick-snare-ki-kick-kick-snare, now your bass line or groove, will emphasize those extra little ki-kick-kicks.

Now consider most dance music like country western, Klezmer, disco and even often in big band jazz. The drummer is often playing 4 on the floor, 1 kick drum per beat. Another case when locking-in to that kick just sounds good.

I wonder how you could miss the bass drum kick if you're playing 8th note on all the beat ...

as for your "kick-snare-kick-kick-snare" thingy ... it is pretty much : Quater note, rest, two 8th note, rest
So of course if you play the same rythm figure as the drum "it will lock" ... same thing if the guitar player does it too !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I'm starting to Wonder if ... many people would be completely loss withtout a drummer to "lock" with to give them ideas as to rythm figure to play

 

[static0verdrive]

I started this thread thinking more along the lines of how we as bass players join the drums for the rhythm, not how we stay within the proper tempo. Of course you need to listen to the whole kit for a sense of the entire rhythm, but often that's only going to be true if the drummer doesn't suck. If he does, chances are he's only playing the rhythm on one or two pieces of his kit and the rest are just beats thrown in for his own time-keeping.

Regarding others members of the band, although they are in time, they do not have to follow the rhythm - you can have a call/answer style like the Minutemen did very often (as one example). That said, of course you could have the guitar following the rhythm and have the bass do some melodic answering to the guitar's calls, but that's just not a common way of doing things. I'm just more curious how you sync up with the drums overall - obviously it will sound "locked in" if you play the same rhythm in the same tempo. I follow the hihat or ride as I mentioned in the OP, to give me a sense of the overall rhythm, and then choose to play some or all of it with varying notes. The challenge is breaking out of my own mold from one tune to the next. Do you find you use lower pitch notes for kick drum hits and higher pitches for snare? (This is my norm but I try to change it up.) Do you lock in with his rhythm by playing every space between his hits? and so on...

EDIT: There are no "rules" of course, just commonalities many of us growing up on and playing western music fall into.