The rhythm section - locking in with drums

[NG51]

I started playing in the 60s, and played mostly jazz at that time. My training with that type of playing is that you lock with the hat. One really great pro player who was a teacher at a clinic I did told me to set up so that I could see what the drummer was doing, not just hear it. For that kind of music, using the hi hat as the timekeeper worked great.
I'm now playing with a lot of younger guys now(I'm actually 40 years older than the next youngest guy), and it's a whole different world- what rtav said above is the way that these guys lock-follow the kick, use the snare. The interesting thing to me is that the drummer I'm working with struggled a bit when we played older jazz tunes(especially swing-type tunes)-primarily because he was trying to keep time with the kick(playing quarter notes) and not the hi hat. However, I had a lot to learn from these young guys about how to lock with the drummer on these newer styles. The one truth for me that carries across all these styles is that I set up where I can see what the drummer is doing-especially with the hi hat and the kick.

 

[Dogbertday]

Locking in =/= following

Just sayin.

 

[n30g30]

I think billy sheehan did an instructional video for beginners where he says something like "if you don't know when to play a note, listen to the kick drum, and play a note there"

I hear what you are saying but if you assume reasonsble talent for both players and don't forget to cut each other some slack, you can work together to sync up by listening to each other. It requires both players.

 

[DinoRock]

But generally, the way it was explained to me all those years ago still fundamentally holds true: "When the drummer hits the kick, you should hit a note. When the drummer hits the snare, you may want to hit a note. And if the drummer is doing neither, find out what the hell the drummer is doing and do that, too."

My experience in the studio over the past decade or so echos the above when doing pop music. Bass and kick need to be sync'd.

Most of this thread is devoted to playing live. In that case, my experience is that my flexibility is inversely proportional to the number of instruments in the band. I take many liberties when playing in a power trio. However, when I'm doing a benefit show with a stage full of talented and well-known musicians, I'm just trying to work with the drummer and be a solid and locked in rhythm section that allows everyone else to do their thing.

The examples I give of the former would be early Who or, maybe, Rush. Examples of the later would be the E Street Band or some Paul Schaffer backing band deal.

 

[Mystic Michael]

More importantly though, the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT, not the RHYTHM. I think this is the core of my issue with the "lock onto the kick drum" train of thought - you'd be locking onto a beat instead of the rhythm the drums are layin' down.

Thoughts? Experiences? Opinions?

I really do not grasp the distinction you are trying to make. According to what rule can the kick drum not be used to accentuate the rhythm? And how is "beat" so fundamentally different from "rhythm"? Is "beat" not a constituent part of "rhythm"? Is it even possible to play a beat...without automatically playing a rhythm?

None of this makes any sense to me...

MM

 

[MalcolmAmos]

..................... I also pose this question to you guys: how often does your drummer decide to match to you instead of you matching to the drummer? All this talk of locking in with the drums always seems to imply we are slaves to whatever the drummer comes up with. What if you come up with a better groove, does the drummer follow you? My drummer work together on findind the best grooves for our songs but I wonder what others do.

Once when setting up at another location our drummer asked that I move so he could see my fretboard - that surprised me. We do work well together, but, I had no idea he was keying off me.

 

[rtav]

I also pose this question to you guys: how often does your drummer decide to match to you instead of you matching to the drummer? All this talk of locking in with the drums always seems to imply we are slaves to whatever the drummer comes up with. What if you come up with a better groove, does the drummer follow you? My drummer work together on findind the best grooves for our songs but I wonder what others do.

EXCELLENT QUESTION - thanks for bringing it up!

Probably because of my concept of locking in, I started really listening to drummers, what they were doing, when they went to the ride or china instead of the high hat, etc. I listen mostly to Peart and to this day I pretty much know every fill on Permanent Waves. In fact, our drummer says I can air drum the fills in "Free Will" better than he can play them. We talk drums all the time although I've never played I have a good ear for the drummer and what and how they're doing what they're doing.

So there are times where I will suggest that he do something different. I can think of many examples including one from last night (OK, it involved another instance of doubling, see my post above), but in an original I was going from C# walking down C to B finally down to E. On the way from B down to E I added a "stutter step" going B-B G B-B F# E. So we stopped and worked it out so that his kick would double the "stutter step" I was playing down to E -ala "The Camera Eye" or something. And I've suggested he play things differently than how he's playing it and he's very receptive. I (being musically illiterate) can also point out to Mr Masters in Music when something isn't right and even if he thinks he's following the sheet music, something still not right, so he stops and works it out until it's right. I can also say that if we think I have a better groove than what he's doing, he'll at least try it out. My drummer will actually change or take a bare idea I have and make a drum beat from it. Usually though I follow him, with suggestions and changes along the way, but once in awhile it works the other way. So I'm pretty lucky.

 

[bolophonic]

I lock into everything the drummer is doing, but I build my bass lines around the kick on the 'one.'

 

[PortlandBass77]

I try to lock into the groove, not specifically the drums, though I wish I were better at it than I am.....

 

[TAZ]

Man, I stick with a good drummers. So many focus on trying to work the toms and think there doing Vinnie Colaiuta or Neil Peart let alone just move it like Steve Gadd, leaving the kick as an after thought. The ones that have excellent metering, know how to queue up the changes and for Christ sakes, can use the kick properly is only maybe, at best, 20% of them that are out there. The last thing I want to do and just peeves me if I have to is be a metronome to keep the band in time. So yes, I listen to drummers, critically, probably 70%, myself 20% and everything else 10%.... and only watch the singer and guitars for any queuing coordination.

 

[bass12]

I instinctively take in the drums as a whole, I think. Then, depending on what's going on, I might focus on one particular part of the kit more than the others. Open up your ears and go.

 

[crucislancer]

Probably because of my concept of locking in, I started really listening to drummers, what they were doing, when they went to the ride or china instead of the high hat, etc.

+1

This is very important to locking in. Listening, understanding, and acting on it. For me, my personal way of locking in with a drummer, is to listen to the big picture, understand what he's doing, and compliment it. It's not just being in time, but being cohesive. And, it's a two-way street. You can't lock in with a drummer completely until he locks in with you. This isn't meant to say that the rest of the band isn't important in the course of a song or set list, an ear has to be kept to everything else as the bass is the link between melody and rhythm. But for me to do my job right, I need to get into the drummer's mindset, know why he's going to go left instead of right, and he needs to do the same for me. Sometimes it takes a little work to go beyond the act of time keeping, other times it comes naturally. Just my experiences, anyway.

 

[marmadaddy]

I listen to the kick. I don't necessarily focus on emulating it, I just listen and become aware of it and get the focus off of my right hand. Then I add the snare. Same thing. This typically takes a couple measures tops. Once I'm aware of these two things I'm pretty much "locked in".

 

[Basshappi]

......... You have to listen to the whole band.

This is the central fact of playing in an ensemble, period!
I am constantly amazed by how often I encounter musicians that cannot play their instruments while simultainously being aware of what all the other musicians are playing. Certainly one's focus shifts throughout the song, but even then one should continue to have a general awareness of everything going on in the piece.

 

[jjmuckluckjr]

The bass / drum dynamic can make or break a band. Having a tight (or locked in) rhythm section can make an average band shine. Conversely, not having that interaction can turn a great band to mush. A prime example is the Rolling Stones. An incredible studio band the wrote masterpieces. Let's face it, Stones live, I've heard bar bands with tighter arrangements. They get a pass because of who they are. Playing that way, your band will just sound sloppy and frankly amateurish. You're supposed to be a band, not a bunch of soloists.

 

[Pelao]

I really do not grasp the distinction you are trying to make. According to what rule can the kick drum not be used to accentuate the rhythm? And how is "beat" so fundamentally different from "rhythm"? Is "beat" not a constituent part of "rhythm"? Is it even possible to play a beat...without automatically playing a rhythm?

None of this makes any sense to me...

MM

Imagine playing straight 8th notes. The rhythm is an 8th note pulse, but the beat of the song might be a dotted quarter pattern.

Take the 3-2 clave rhythm. Most people in an ensemble would not be playing that rhythm note for note. The beat of the song is a 3-2 clave, but the rhythms would most definitely be something else. However, the rhythm would line up so that it is hitting on the beat on occasion.

Take a four on the floor dance groove. The beat is most certainly felt on 1-2-3-4, yet you can play only upbeats and it would sound like it fits. You aren't playing any notes of the beat, but your rhythm is emphasizing the beat (in this case, with negative space).

The beat to me is the inherent heartbeat of the song. If you were to filter out all the extra stuff and boil it down to a handful of notes, this is what would make up the heartbeat. The rhythms of the members, and especially bass and drums, are there to emphasize the inherent heartbeat, and that might mean copying it directly or playing rhythms that hint at the underlying heartbeat.

 

[Thumper19605]

Good question!, Locking in is the main thing for any good bass/drum section.
My current band is a good example, I had a rough time locking in with this veteran drummer, playing rock 70,s to date.
Finally figured him out to be what I call a shuffler. Look up Purdy shuffle. I changed my accents accordingly and we locked.
Every tune we play now sounds better. Worth the time to get it right with your drummer.

Link to said shuffle.

the purdy shuffle - LinuxMint Yahoo Search Results

 

[cnltb]

I'm not sure if this is a question, an observation, or a rant. I am very curious to hear what you guys think though... and I hope I don't offend anyone (oblig disclaimer: I do NOT mean to offend!)

How do you sync up with the drummer? As a drummer since before starting on bass, I know that my ride/hihat hand is my time-keeper, not to mention the base rhythm for a song. It's by far the best thing to lock onto as a bass player; however, I often hear (both here on talkbass and elsewhere) bass players saying "lock onto the kick drum"... but I never understood this philosophy.

The kick drum is often played on the one (first beat) in a lot of western music, true... but not always. In fact, I find it not all that predictable in my own playing (I'm by no means a drum god or anything, but bear with me here) and when it really is predicable, often the drummer sucks! It practically borders on dance music territory. It gets worse if it is a crappy drummer at all, because then his kick drum may not even be well timed with his own time-keeping hand.

More importantly though, the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT, not the RHYTHM. I think this is the core of my issue with the "lock onto the kick drum" train of thought - you'd be locking onto a beat instead of the rhythm the drums are layin' down.

Thoughts? Experiences? Opinions?

I try to lock in with the overall pulse of the drums and usually not with one specific instrument.
Sometimes I do that too though.

 

[IanA]

I love to lock into the kick and then build with locking into the snare as well and then the cymbals for 8th and 16th note passages.
A good drummer is essential though! One guy I used to play with could not play consistent kick patterns.. That kind of messes things up a bit. The best drummers that I have worked with whilst being ridiculously talented have been very disciplined and straight forward in what they have played. They serve the song rather than the song serving them, under skilled drummers seem the worse for overplaying and inconsistency as they feel they have something to prove! Rant over

 

[Capt.Obvious]

I'm not sure if this is a question, an observation, or a rant. I am very curious to hear what you guys think though... and I hope I don't offend anyone (oblig disclaimer: I do NOT mean to offend!)

How do you sync up with the drummer? As a drummer since before starting on bass, I know that my ride/hihat hand is my time-keeper, not to mention the base rhythm for a song. It's by far the best thing to lock onto as a bass player; however, I often hear (both here on talkbass and elsewhere) bass players saying "lock onto the kick drum"... but I never understood this philosophy.

The kick drum is often played on the one (first beat) in a lot of western music, true... but not always. In fact, I find it not all that predictable in my own playing (I'm by no means a drum god or anything, but bear with me here) and when it really is predicable, often the drummer sucks! It practically borders on dance music territory. It gets worse if it is a crappy drummer at all, because then his kick drum may not even be well timed with his own time-keeping hand.

More importantly though, the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT, not the RHYTHM. I think this is the core of my issue with the "lock onto the kick drum" train of thought - you'd be locking onto a beat instead of the rhythm the drums are layin' down.

Thoughts? Experiences? Opinions?

I briefly skimmed the responses so far and haven't seen any mention that it really matters what kind of music your playing. For instance, in jazz, the real time keeper of the groove is that walking bass line, the drummer technically should be locking in with the bass mans tempo or vice versa, the bass man can lock in with that ride cymbal and hi hat.

Now consider rock n' roll. It's all straight 8ths usually, so ya, that typical 8th note pattern on the hi hat is usually the metronome for those grooves, but this is where the bass man should 'lock in' with the kick drum. Here's simplified example of your standard 4/4 rock beat. Kick-snare-kick-kick-snare. Our bass lines should 'lock-in' or "emphasize" those kicks. it just sounds better to have the two lowest frequency instruments "locked-in." In this instance, "locking-in" with the kick is more about the groove and phrasing of your bassline than tempo. Now say the drums are more like, ki-kick-kick-snare-ki-kick-kick-snare, now your bass line or groove, will emphasize those extra little ki-kick-kicks.

Now consider most dance music like country western, Klezmer, disco and even often in big band jazz. The drummer is often playing 4 on the floor, 1 kick drum per beat. Another case when locking-in to that kick just sounds good.