The rhythm section - locking in with drums

[MalcolmAmos]

Interesting post. which sent me to my dictionary.

Beat

The beat or pulse in a piece of music is the regular rhythmic pattern of the music. Each bar should start with a strong beat and each bar should end with a weak beat. These may be known as the down-beat (strong, at the beginning of a bar) and the up-beat (weak, at the end of a bar). Up and down describe the gestures of a conductor, whose preparatory up-beat is of even greater importance to players than his down-beat.

Rhythm

Rhythm, an essential element in music in one way or another, is the arrangement of notes according to their relative duration and relative accentuation.

Tempo

Tempo (Italian: time) means the speed at which a piece of music is played. Sometimes the exact tempo is given at the beginning of a piece of music with the number of beats to a minute, as measured by a metronome. More often tempo indications give the performer more latitude, although the Hungarian composer Bel Bartk, for example, gives exact timings, often of each section of a work. In much earlier music the tempo is implicit in the notation or in the type of music.​

I think I fall into the root on one and the beat (time signature) is what I'm looking for. Most of the time that is locking with the kick drum, however, I do sometime leave the beat to the drummer and I accent the chord change word - on ballads with a full tone (4 count) root note. I also sometime lock with the hi-hat - this seems to be song specific.

Interesting string.

 

[Oneirogenic]

When I was 14 or so, we did our first studio recordings. We went to Memphis (and got to use the same board that Zep III was recorded on!) and after a couple of takes the producer took outside to the sidewalk and asked the drummer and I, "How long you been playin?" I said "About a year and a half, two years," and the drummer said about the same. He nodded and asked, "Do you know what it means to 'lock in' together, as bass and drums?" We both shrugged and he explained to us, "When the drummer hits the kick, you should hit a note. When the drummer hits the snare, you may want to hit a note. And if the drummer is doing neither, find out what the hell the drummer is doing and do that, too."

We took it to heart, and every single beat from the kick or snare was duplicated verbatim on bass. Of course I had my own things, and he had his own fills, etc., but as time went on and we got better those fills began to lock in beat for beat, note for note, tom for tom, through the entire roll. It didn't help that we were huge Rush fans, having discovered them when "Farewell to Kings" came out - it was Geddy and Neil, more than anyone, who lock in phenomenally in the same way. "Cities full of hatred, fear and lies..." That's it.

Fast forward to now. I'm privileged to play with an incredible drummer who is a Portnoy devotee, playing all of Transatlantic's catalog, most of Dream Theater's, all of Neal Morse and a good bit of Rush. His masters is in music and he teaches music full time, playing several instruments. We've been playing together for 7 years now, and are as tight as we can possibly be, meaning that when I pop a fourth lower of a root for emphasis and do it very quickly it's almost intuitive that he does it too with his kick (as found in Cinderella Man, for cryin out loud!) Note for note.

A cymbal may get picked up as a harmonic pop that hangs over a riff, the closed high hat might get duplicated as a high fast tapping thing or whatever. But if his kick is pulling triplets, the bass will be right on top, playing triplets, not straight time, even though that might line up (eventually). Now of course there are places without drums but have bass, and vice versa, and places where we pull back and funk it up a bit with some improv, but we've played together so long it's almost presciently doubled anyways). We go to great pains to insure that every fill on the drums is matched note on the bass (where and in what technique is up to me, but if he doesn't like what I'm doing I'll usually toss it), so I have to double very fast fills, and some with crazy splash cymbals or a timbale thrown in here or there. Keeps me on my toes.

Just last night at rehearsal, we were playing one of our new originals and he wanted to change something so that instead of JUST having the drums hit a whole note in the intro, the bass would (ta-da!) double it by hitting E on the 12th and dragging down to G on the 3rd in time and then fast muting. So we're still doing stuff to double one another.

There are places where the bass doesn't follow the drums but follows the guitar (Dream Theater's "Erotomania" for instance) and then locks back in with the drums in an unexpected way, and of course, lots of places where the band all lock in together for crazy stuff (again, Dream Theater comes to mind, and some of our originals as well).

But generally, the way it was explained to me all those years ago still fundamentally holds true: "When the drummer hits the kick, you should hit a note. When the drummer hits the snare, you may want to hit a note. And if the drummer is doing neither, find out what the hell the drummer is doing and do that, too."

That's lockin in to me. YMMV.

I like how you articulate locking in. I just wanted to add in an idea that you and others may be familiar that I refer to as "dancing around each other". It's basically like your bass part becomes another drum rather than exactly matching a specific drum part. It still makes a complete and tight groove, just in a different way. It's kinda like how in bluegrass the bass acts like a kick, the mandolin chops on the snare hits etc.

I also pose this question to you guys: how often does your drummer decide to match to you instead of you matching to the drummer? All this talk of locking in with the drums always seems to imply we are slaves to whatever the drummer comes up with. What if you come up with a better groove, does the drummer follow you? My drummer work together on findind the best grooves for our songs but I wonder what others do.

 

[Big Hoss]

For what it's worth, every instructor I have had, instructional video I have watched, or book I have read that covers locking in with the drummer tells you to lock in to the kick... So to answer your question, that idea comes from the way we get trained...

 

[HolmeBass]

I personally find that locking in with the kick only works for steady, repeated kick drum patterns. I prefer to lock in on the drummer's feel, his subdivisions of the beat, by locking into the hi-hats or ride, keying on the backbeat, and providing my own big "1". If we're locked in, the kick and the bass on "1" take care of themselves.

The idea of looking at the drummer's kick drum foot is entirely alien to me, I could never get that to work. Not to say it doesn't work great for others, because obviously it does, but there is more than one way to lock-in. I think Gary Willis in BP magazine also espoused locking into the subdivisions by starting with the cymbals (hi-hat or ride) and then focussing on the snare and the kick from within that "same subdivision" context.

 

[Ric5]

I like to sometimes play off of the vocals, play syncopated or sometimes behind the beat, or skip a beat. That can add a lot of interest to the music, but if the drummer is inconsistent then I have to simplify what I play and lock into 8th or quarter notes to keep the drummer from wandering.

 

[Dogbertday]

I totally agree with clef_de_fa when it comes to most jazz or other improvised music, but the sound of a bass and kick drum playing together is an orchestration choice more than simply relying on a metronome. Similar to the common choice of combining violin and clarinet for a unison passage in classical music. In non classical the players are making the choice to play unison because it sounds best in that instance.

It also has to do with which parts of a tune are improvised and which are fixed. If the rhythmic motif is more fixed (see: groove) than that actually allows harmonic freedom because the ear has something to grab in to.

The tune maiden voyage is a good example of this. The players don't strictly play together but the ARE locked in to each other emphasizing an essentail rhythmic idea. They are still conversing within the context of the piece (just like when you're all playing the same changes, but still conversing)

 

[smeet]

I personally find that locking in with the kick only works for steady, repeated kick drum patterns.

Years ago I used to work with a drummer with whom I had a supernatural-seeming rhythmic bond. We could flawlessly improvise fills and time changes in unison without ever looking at each other. Sometimes we would even do it with no tempo or beat, just trying to randomly hit together without looking at each other or depending on a tempo. We were successful a shocking percentage of the time. It's been more than a couple of decades and I've not had that kind of "lock" with another drummer since.

I sometimes wonder if truly high-level players (Steve Gadd and Anthony Jackson for instance) can get together for the first time and have that incredible bond, immediately and consistently. When it happens, it's truly intoxicating - it literally feels like your feet have left the ground, like you're flying without exerting any effort.

 

[HolmeBass]

Years ago I used to work with a drummer with whom I had a supernatural-seeming rhythmic bond. We could flawlessly improvise fills and time changes in unison without ever looking at each other. Sometimes we would even do it with no tempo or beat, just trying to randomly hit together without looking at each other or depending on a tempo. We were successful a shocking percentage of the time. It's been more than a couple of decades and I've not had that kind of "lock" with another drummer since.

I sometimes wonder if truly high-level players (Steve Gadd and Anthony Jackson for instance) can get together for the first time and have that incredible bond, immediately and consistently. When it happens, it's truly intoxicating - it literally feels like your feet have left the ground, like you're flying without exerting any effort.

I think the top-level guys lock together pretty effortlessly, but it might take a much deeper lock for them to *feel* the way you describe. They get used to be really good!

 

[Milo Spleen]

It was always my first step with new tunes to get the kick patterns and hi-hat and plan the rhythm around the quarters and eights. Normally, I thought it kept a clean groove and left space for keys and guitar. Listen to Don and Mel in Grand Funk Railroad for a tight kick and hi-hat.

 

[sprag]

the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT

Hadn't thought too much about it till now, I always assumed I was staying in time with the kick.

Now I realise I'm actually staying in time with the hats, as I infinitely prefer setting up on that side of the kit. I usually watch the drummers kick foot, especially when learning/writing a new song. I assume this is to "lock in" with the accents.

 

[GregT]

I don't like fancy show off drummers. I like a good pocket-drummer. Gets people on the dancefloor. Most every drummer I've played with at all the Branson jams are the first kind. Nothing to lock in with. Last week at a huge outdoor show/jam, the soundman asked if he could play drums and he was the best pocket drummer I have seen in ages. I locked right in with him, easily and naturally. The guitarist mentioned it later. I just can't get together with a drummer who is all about playing to himself. So I guess I am saying that locking in with the drummer depends on the drummer in a big way. Gimme a bass drum on the one, a snare on the three, solid hi-hat, and the drummer can frost the cake any way he/she wants. But without the strong backbeat, he's just not a drummer, in my opinion. Just another Guitar Center showroom drummer.

 

[Lo-E]

What I listen to really depends upon A) the drummer and how he/she plays, B) what's happening with the rest of the band, C) what the material sounds like.
You can make a blanket statement like "Always listen to the kick for the pulse" or "Always listen to the hat for the tempo" but, in the moment, it all hinges on what's going on in the big picture. Different drummers use the kit differently - even within the same style of music - and once you start mixing styles up it gets pretty hard to pin down a rule of thumb that will cover all bas(s)es. Would I listen to the ride cymbal the same way in a rock band as I would playing bebop? Heck no! You have to listen to the whole kit. You have to listen to the whole band.

 

[Caleb Mills]

I'm not sure if this is a question, an observation, or a rant. I am very curious to hear what you guys think though... and I hope I don't offend anyone (oblig disclaimer: I do NOT mean to offend!)

How do you sync up with the drummer? As a drummer since before starting on bass, I know that my ride/hihat hand is my time-keeper, not to mention the base rhythm for a song. It's by far the best thing to lock onto as a bass player; however, I often hear (both here on talkbass and elsewhere) bass players saying "lock onto the kick drum"... but I never understood this philosophy.

The kick drum is often played on the one (first beat) in a lot of western music, true... but not always. In fact, I find it not all that predictable in my own playing (I'm by no means a drum god or anything, but bear with me here) and when it really is predicable, often the drummer sucks! It practically borders on dance music territory. It gets worse if it is a crappy drummer at all, because then his kick drum may not even be well timed with his own time-keeping hand.

More importantly though, the kick is used to accent or emphasize a BEAT, not the RHYTHM. I think this is the core of my issue with the "lock onto the kick drum" train of thought - you'd be locking onto a beat instead of the rhythm the drums are layin' down.

Thoughts? Experiences? Opinions?

I guess I do a mixture of both? I don't know. I was also always told when first starting out to lock on to the bass drum. Now though, I'm not sure that I ALWAYS follow the bass drum or the high hat. I think once you get an ear for "groove" you start to play things that compliment and help the drum beat Instead of copying what the drummer is doing. Although there are definitely times when playing exactly what the drummer is playing is necessary for emphasis.

 

[jmverdugo]

I follow the drummer and lock with bass drum most of the times, we have a few songs with lots of acoustic guitar strumming that makes me playing with the kick redundant, then I get creative. Having said that there is nothing better - for me - the hitting a note with the kick drum, you can do other stuff of course but play with kick a few notes to blow some air and remind people you are around.

 

[hintz]

I personally find that locking in with the kick only works for steady, repeated kick drum patterns. I prefer to lock in on the drummer's feel, his subdivisions of the beat, by locking into the hi-hats or ride, keying on the backbeat, and providing my own big "1". If we're locked in, the kick and the bass on "1" take care of themselves.

The idea of looking at the drummer's kick drum foot is entirely alien to me, I could never get that to work. Not to say it doesn't work great for others, because obviously it does, but there is more than one way to lock-in. I think Gary Willis in BP magazine also espoused locking into the subdivisions by starting with the cymbals (hi-hat or ride) and then focussing on the snare and the kick from within that "same subdivision" context.

I also listen to the hi-hat or ride first, I also find that with some drummers its hard to hear the kick (especially in rehearsal)so watching doesn't make it much easier, so I go for the overall feel unless its a familiar cover...

And then you got styles like salsa music where instead of bass and drums "locking in" their playing off each other to great effect...

 

[MrLenny1]

Yah, what Bunk said.

 

[DreadyDiggs]

I lock onto whatever is the most consistent. If my accents coincide with the kick drum, I normally focus on that. If they coincide with the snare I may focus on that.

Being that I play reggae, there's like 3 different drum patterns used, and I'll lock onto one thing or another depending on the pattern.

Sometimes the bassline weaves around the drums, and I may even bop to the riddim guitar skank.

I lock onto whatever I need to stay in the pocket.

 

[Corbin]

I always feel like I am keeping the beat. Maybe I have a superb metronome in my head, or maybe I've never played with the right drummer, but I never feel like I am following anybody else in the band. I am in tune with the beat itself, the pulse of the music. When I feel the drummer is as well, that's when it's awesome. In my main current band, the drummer has a tendency to slow down, so I am often trying to correct him by playing a little ahead of the beat -- like gently pulling him on a leash or something. Other times he's fine -- but I'm never following him. I expect him and the guitar player to follow the music's pulse along with me, and if they can't, then I expect them to follow me. And for the most part, they do, and they've never complained. I wonder what would happen if I played with a drummer who had a better sense of tempo than I do. I just don't know what it's like to "lock in" to another person's playing. I lock in with the beat itself -- I feel like I become the beat. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Jughead6]

I've recently been expanding my horizons into reggae. Locking into the drums just became a whole lot weirder.

 

[DreadyDiggs]

I just don't know what it's like to "lock in" to another person's playing. I lock in with the beat itself -- I feel like I become the beat. Am I doing something wrong?

Try playing along to a different genre of music and see if that happens. Don't even know what genre you play but I do understand where you coming from.

I've recently been expanding my horizons into reggae. Locking into the drums just became a whole lot weirder.

Fun isn't it? LOL.