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Double Bass The Room / Stage From Hell - how do you deal with it?

...With the parametric (once you get savvy at using them) you can relatively precisely----attenuate the problem areas without affecting areas that would hurt your sound if they were cut...

Thx, Mike. Got any tips to help one become savvier? How can you know how you sound when you can't get away from the stage (short of someone's great idea of running through a looper)? Last outdoor gig—with PA support—I had a particular F# that sounded really boomy to me, but another band member said it sounded fine.
 
.......... A really good tone-shaping circuit (parametric or semi-parametric) might help......

I've used a Headway EDB-1 and now the EDB-2, it can get you out of all kinds sonic dilemmas, once again there are other options, I just haven't found anything that suits me better.

..........As for you being able to hear what you play, the ideal solution would involve minimizing the path-length from the speaker to your ear. Can you put your amp or a cab extension up on a chair or on a pole?.........

To that end, I just purchased a new Gator Frameworks ID Speaker Stand, that has a very ergonomic design and small footprint, whether it's in use or collapsed. When feedback is the culprit, getting the speaker up of the floor can really help.

I'll offer one more suggestion. Not being able to hear the pitch and articulation of the notes in difficult rooms was substantially improved for me when I switched to the Ehrlund pickup. As I've posted elsewhere, I believe that the Ehrlund transduces the temporal attack/decay envelope of the bass far better than any other pickup I've used..........

I'm not suggesting that you necessarily go out and buy new equipment to remedy your situation in one room. I'm just describing potential solutions so that you have more to consider. For me, on my bass, and given my preferences, IMO, IME, FWIW, the Ehrlund represented an improvement across all rooms and situations. YMMV.

+1 The Ehrlund also solved a world of problems in small boomy rooms for me as well, because, as Les pointed out in an earlier thread, it's pre amp is essentially "ruler flat" across the full frequency spectrum. It doesn't over emphasize the bass, midrange or treble. So, as you increase the volume,

all the frequencies, come up evenly, if that makes any sense. Unfortunately, it did an significant price jump and isn't the bargain that it once was and you absolutely must try it out on your bass, before you commit to the purchase.
 
My experience with the Ehrlund is different than yours and Les's. Beautiful sound in the right circumstances, very difficult to work with in bad rooms. Then, again, I'm kind of a troglodyte with this stuff. I know you guys are much better educated than me in this area.
 
The MVW technology that I use does one interesting thing. It seems to not excite room resonances to nearly the degree of a reflex cab. It is due to the decorrelation of the sound emitted due to very small delays. (imperceptible). Don't ask me exactly why it does this. But it does.

If I might toss out some thoughts on the subject... this will seem unrelated at first, but then will hopefully tie back in:

Over in the high-end home audio world, natural-sounding bass in the subwoofer region (south of 80 Hz or so) is pretty rare. The main culprit is the room itself - the room will impose a rather horrendous peak-and-dip pattern on a subwoofer's frequency response. This peak-and-dip pattern changes as you change the location of either the subwoofer or the listener, but you cannot eliminate it by speaker placement alone. So a lot of people use powerful DEQ components to equalize the subwoofer's response. That can be very effective at the microphone location, but can make things worse elsewhere in the room.

The solution I embrace is to use four small subwoofers distributed around the room. Each one will produce a dissimilar peak-and-dip pattern at any given listening position in the room, but the sum of these four dissimilar (de-correlated) peak-and-dip patterns will be much smoother than any one alone. I have customers who have measured plus or minus 3 dB across the bass region in-room without EQ using this approach, and (perhaps even more important) this smoothness holds up pretty much throughout the room.

What Mike's MVW cabs do is conceptually similar to what my multisub system does. But instead of spreading out the bass sources in space, the MVW cab spreads out the bass sources in time. There is a significant time delay (as the backwave travels through the enclosure) between the arrival of the low frequency energy off the front of the cone, and the arrival of the low frequency energy off the back of the cone. The MVW cabinet itself acts as if it has many internal path lengths (there is no one-wavelength cancellation notch like we see in transmission line enclosures), so we may say that the backwave energy is de-correlated (both with respect to the frontwave, and with respect to itself). At least this is my understanding based in part on the in-house measurements I've made. Note that MVW cabs have this de-correlation characteristic well up through the midrange region.

I'm licensed to use the MVW technology in a different market, and I've seen it produce very articulate low bass in a setting where we'd normally expect boomy, inarticulate low bass. Imo it's a viable acoustic solution to what is fundamentally an acoustic problem. An electronic solution (EQ) can help, but it can't really solve what is fundamentally an acoustic problem, in this case poor speaker/room interaction.

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
 
Over in the high-end home audio world, natural-sounding bass in the subwoofer region (south of 80 Hz or so) is pretty rare. The main culprit is the room itself - the room will impose a rather horrendous peak-and-dip pattern on a subwoofer's frequency response. This peak-and-dip pattern changes as you change the location of either the subwoofer or the listener, but you cannot eliminate it by speaker placement alone. So a lot of people use powerful DEQ components to equalize the subwoofer's response. That can be very effective at the microphone location, but can make things worse elsewhere in the room.

So, Duke, essentially what you're saying is that their are some rooms that it's difficult if next to impossible to EQ out frequencies that resonate to much without really compromising the sound of the instrument. This for the most part has been my experience with cabinets that try to get lots of low end response
it's tricky to use that low end in a acoustically challenging scenario, much less a banquet hall. I've never been convinced that the folks out in the middle and rear of the hall can, actually hear those low fundamentals, sometimes it's nice to hear them on stage, but to me, that's just a player's comfort issue that doesn't always pan out.

The solution I embrace is to use four small subwoofers distributed around the room. Each one will produce a dissimilar peak-and-dip pattern at any given listening position in the room, but the sum of these four dissimilar (de-correlated) peak-and-dip patterns will be much smoother than any one alone. I have customers who have measured plus or minus 3 dB across the bass region in-room without EQ using this approach, and (perhaps even more important) this smoothness holds up pretty much throughout the room.

Interesting, that sounds like you are solving the "bass sounds boomy" scenario, by creating four zones that move the bass out into the room, rather than trying to use the "brute force" one directional sound pushed from the stage which usually fails. Using groups of smaller speakers
always sounded, better to me, until you built the TC-112 that really kind of breaks out of the mold to give one a very articulate, full range, and perfect timbre, for both Double Bass and Electric Bass. Mikes cabinets, from what we're hearing about them, are amazing boxes


What Mike's MVW cabs do is conceptually similar to what my multisub system does. But instead of spreading out the bass sources in space, the MVW cab spreads out the bass sources in time. There is a significant time delay (as the backwave travels through the enclosure) between the arrival of the low frequency energy off the front of the cone, and the arrival of the low frequency energy off the back of the cone. The MVW cabinet itself acts as if it has many internal path lengths (there is no one-wavelength cancellation notch like we see in transmission line enclosures), so we may say that the backwave energy is de-correlated (both with respect to the frontwave, and with respect to itself). At least this is my understanding based in part on the in-house measurements I've made. Note that MVW cabs have this de-correlation characteristic well up through the midrange region.

My favorite cabinet for DB before you and Mike entered the market was indeed a EA VL208, but if I go back a little further in my carer, their really was nothing that could beat the Double Baffle Reflex cabinet Jess Oliver designed for the B-15N, a much different design, but it did have rear wave and front wave correlation that worked, quite well. I also experimented with several different 2x8 cabinets from SWR (Baby Blue 2x8, Flite Sound, 2x8, and finally the EA-VL208) they had a more pleasant low midrange timbre, without over emphasizing bass, so Mikes MVW designs with multiple small drivers, and de-correlated
backwave energy, just make perfect sense to me.

I'm licensed to use the MVW technology in a different market, and I've seen it produce very articulate low bass in a setting where we'd normally expect boomy, inarticulate low bass. Imo it's a viable acoustic solution to what is fundamentally an acoustic problem. An electronic solution (EQ) can help, but it can't really solve what is fundamentally an acoustic problem, in this case poor speaker/room interaction.Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
 
Interesting, that sounds like you are solving the "bass sounds boomy" scenario, by creating four zones that move the bass out into the room, rather than trying to use the "brute force" one directional sound pushed from the stage which usually fails.

Yes... this is somewhat counter-intuitive, but the path to perceptually smooth in-room bass is not to have fewer peaks and dips, but rather to have more of them, bunched up closer together. The ear/brain system tends to average out peaks and dips that are within 1/3 octave or so of one another, but when they are farther apart than that, they start to stick out like sore thumbs (peaks moreso than dips).

What might work on the Stage from Hell is two cabs, positioned such that the woofers are a significantly different distance from the room boundaries in all three dimensions. This will help stagger their peak-and-dip patterns... in other words, they'll reinforce one another in semi-random phase rather than neatly in-phase (as when they're neatly stacked). I've never actually tried this, and some bass cut might still be needed, but with two smaller cabs and a bit of creative positioning it might help.
 
What is probably happening is you have a bass frequency room resonance - long rooms will do that. Tilt back. like up to 45 degrees, speakers facing the wall, Notch filtering, it's pretty much trial and error because each room is different, and you're standing too close to the speakers, so what you are hearing is bouncing off the ceiling and resonating off the stage. I would get the cabinet off the floor, or put a pad under it, to tame stage resonance, first, then tilt the cabinet back or tilt it and turn it to the back wall. Maybe put the cabinet to one side, so the sound goes across the stage. The main thing is to avoid having the face of the cabinet pointed, more or less, into the room.

What you could try is to download a free Real Time Analyzer app for your cell phone and see what it tells you. It will tell you what the on stage resonance is, and what the room sounds like. With a good parametric or 24 band EQ you should be able to dial out the boom, but it may wind up sounding very thin to your ears.

Do you know someone you could borrow a Bose pole from? I used one (no sub) with my bass amp, and opened the bass amp just enough to get some bottom, but let the pole do the main work. I was surprised at how well the pole got the sound to my ears and all over the bandstand, with out making the room sound boomy.
 
OK, had my own Stage From Hell experience last night. Our bluegrass trio played at a local brewery for the first time. Great big room in a metal warehouse with brewing equipment, fermenters, etc. One portion had a bar, tables & chairs and a low stage. (In VA now you can open a brewery and have a tasting room, ie a crude bar but not have to serve food. So lots of breweries have opened up and most have bands play.) The stage was low and large but uneven and rickety, some places you would just sink into it. But we set up and gave it a go. Had some PA problems that we worked out but my bass was still nothing but a big ole blob of mushed up low end. Bass was just through my Fender Rumble 150 head and 1-15 cab, not in the PA. If I adjusted the upper mids to the point I got some definition I could hear myself but it was gross so backed back off that. Was significantly worse with my NXT EUB than my Fender P, so I used the P most of the night. I had worked out a good tone over the last couple weeks with the compresission/enhance knobs on my Eden Preamp and a Behriger Limiter and a small amount of Chorus. But on the stage that all just made it muddier so I turned all that off but it still barely helped.

So we played a little over two hours and took a break (we were going to take 10 and then play maybe another 30 min 'til closing time). So the guitar player and I looked under the stage. To our horror it consisted of a number of pallets of different sizes topped with scaps of plywood that were not even attached to the pallets, just laying there, vibrating at whatever frequencies it wanted to. An old, thin piece of carpet over it all. What a mess!! No wonder my bass sound was such a mess!

Gig went OK, we got paid (no guarantee here), good crowd and good vibe. People in the crowd said it sounded OK but was not the best night on stage.

Hope to play there again but will just put my amp on the concrete to the side of the stage (or maybe lift it up a little on a piano stool that was there).
 
Indeed, an HPF can do a fine job taming boominess if what is causing the problem is primarily the low bass. Keep in mind that if you place the cutoff of the HPF high enough to attenuate the upper bass, then you kill the lower bass with it.

Yeah -- that's the idea -- don't amplify the low-freqs if you don't have to. My bluegrass quartet also plays in a room from hell as well, and I hired a soundman (finally) to run my UI16 board with RCF EVOX-8 compact line array PA system in this room. He pushed up the HPF on the UI16 on my bass channel input (with Erhlund pickup) above the cross-over freq of my EVOX-8 (>220HZ). Afterwards I asked him why, and he said that he did not need any more boom in the house than what my bass was putting out acoustically, and that he wanted more articulation from my bass. We got great comments on our sound that night. Bingo!
 
I've been using the markbass 1x12 combo as well and it's a remarkable little cube amp --- for most gigs. However, in a boomy room, that rear firing port can complicate things - especially if all you've got is a corner space to work with.

Do you have any other combos or cabs that are sealed or front ported? If this were my steady gig I'd be tempted to try out my SWR 2x10. Overkill? Probably. But it's front ported and I place it vertically so I get a slightly elevated woofer to hear myself without losing that pleasing floor thump on stage (I'm fully aware this could be a part of the problem).

However, a bad sounding room is just that. But other culprits could be your drummer & guitarist. I know several drummers who delight in those types of rooms because it makes their snare sound like a cannon. Also, if the guitarist plays loud, through a twin or a bassman, you're SOL.

Ask the drummer to use some brushes and see if the guitarist can use a smaller amp in that venue - yeah right!