Double Bass The Science of EQ-ing

[drurb]

One thing I like to do in rooms I'll be playing a lot is to take an extra long cable for soundcheck and step down off the stage into the front row and see how the sound of the bass translates down there. Usually what I discover is that the high mid/high stuff that I found grating right up close to the amp has mellowed 15 or 20' away, and that it's actually a useful sound at that point. The way this translates to the bandstand is that I feel comfortable setting the amp for a slightly edgier sound than I would normally want if it was only for the musicians on stage, because I know that it gets mellower and less distinct the farther it travels.

Exactly! This is one of the ways I alluded to in my earlier post for checking the sound from the position of an audience member. I do it as well. What you describe about the high frequencies is quite expected and typical of all but the "hardest" rooms. It seems most of us are in agreement that, despite how much individual members of the audience may care, WE want our sound to be as we desire.

 

[Ric Vice]

Go to the AMT website and listen to the interview with Marty Paglione. If I remember correctly he says some good stuff about EQing.

What a great interview! Paglione gives some very simple and usefull info. I love it when he talks about looking (as Chris and others have said over and over agian on TB) at all the parts of a signal chain. His advice is simply not to blow all your funds on the microphone alone and then run it through a inadequate amplifier. It's better to spend your money equally throught the signal chain. So, for those of us with limited budgets
a decent mic or pickup connected to a high quality bass amp is more effective.

Ric

 

[Keyser Soze]

One thing I like to do in rooms I'll be playing a lot is to take an extra long cable for soundcheck and step down off the stage into the front row and see how the sound of the bass translates down there. Usually what I discover is that the high mid/high stuff that I found grating right up close to the amp has mellowed 15 or 20' away, and that it's actually a useful sound at that point. The way this translates to the bandstand is that I feel comfortable setting the amp for a slightly edgier sound than I would normally want if it was only for the musicians on stage, because I know that it gets mellower and less distinct the farther it travels.

I meant to -- and neglected to -- mention in my previous post that Chris had posted this previously in another thread. If, as the bass player, you want to have an idea as to how the bass sounds in the house, to the folks who have paid (hopefully) to hear the music, you get a long cable and go out in the house during sound check (assuming that there IS a sound check; certainly not a given in the real world.)

But listening to the sound in the house at sound check is of dubious "long-term" value as, at showtime, bunches of sound-absorbtive objects have been installed "in the house" that weren't present during sound check: the audience. Which usually radically changes the acoustic properties of the room, altering how the music will sound during the show, as opposed to on the sound check.

To say that things sound in the house at showtime as they do at sound check is to say that not many people showed up.

I totally "get" that, to feel comfortable playing, one wants their sound to be good on stage. Makes you feel better, hear better, play better. So optimize your rig so it sounds good on stage, kiss up to the sound mixer so it sounds good in the house too. Best to give a pre-everything line to the house mixer, let them get the bass to lay right in the mix, with a nice sound.

If you don't have a PA operator, you gotta split the difference between whether you wanna be happy on stage or whether you want the house mix to sound good. It's often an "either/or." And even then, unless you've got trusted bassist- or other big-eared buds in the house to give you the post(-set) mortem, you catch as catch can.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

But listening to the sound in the house at sound check is of dubious "long-term" value as, at showtime, bunches of sound-absorbtive objects have been installed "in the house" that weren't present during sound check: the audience. Which usually radically changes the acoustic properties of the room, altering how the music will sound during the show, as opposed to on the sound check.

All true. And in general, these sound absorbtive objects tend to darken the sound of the room when there are many of them, which sometimes makes me add more mids and highs if I sense they may be lacking. Granted, a lot of it's a crapshoot, but I try to be on top of controlling what I can and then give the rest over to the big guy upstairs and/or the soundman.

 

[christ andronis]

Assuming the size of the venue is bigger than a nightclub, there's really nothing you can do other than to make it sound good to you up on the stage. If there's one thing house mixers hate, it's a musician constantly changing his/her settings up on stage. My brother does it for a living (engineering) and has ingrained it into me. I've sat with him at his board when he comes through town and listened both at soundcheck and during the show. Big difference between being up on stage and in the house.

 

[Kevin Hsieh]

going to order me a 30 foot cable :]

thanks guys.

 

[bolo]

A lot of us have experience fiddling around with the knobs of our amps and sometimes getting a good sound. However, I feel some of the TBers are with me on the fact that I have no clue what to say when people ask me how to EQ to a certain situation.

Can anyone care to explain the science of EQing to specific situations, such as tightening up the sound in a boomy room or getting rid of middly tone from the pickup? Also, how do we use a graphic equalizer (a la Fishman ProEQ)

Also:
I'm currently running an Underwood direct into a GK MB150 flat but feel that there is a certain presence that I could do without. Any help with that?


thanks ahead

Kevin, all the posts above are great.

I am just a local part-timer as outlined in my profile. But I've been gettin' paid to play bass since 1979, FWIW. My 2 cents, looking at your OP:

1) I much prefer using a high pass filter instead of a bass EQ knob to control boominess w/ piezo pickups on DB. The HPF-Pre is probably the latest and most affordable example of an outboard unit that does just that.

2) As a generalization, clacky or honky mids live somewhere in like the 700-800 Hz region. I don't know if your GK allows you to cut those or not, or how big or small the Q is. Anything labelled "Contour" is usually a mid-cut, but more often than not voiced moreso for slap EB. And be careful w/ it for DB. The magic for DB is in those mids. I didn't come up with that, but find it to be true in gigging situations.

3) I always thought the Underwood and the GK matched up well from what I've heard in terms of input impedance. But maybe a preamp with a 10 Mohm impedance would help and sound a little less brittle. HPF-Pre again. Might be worth a shot.

String choice and speaker placement (especially how close or distant you are from walls and corners, speaker on the floor vs. raised) are also in play. In fact, that's really all I tend to focus on from one room to the next. I just run the EQ flat. (What?? ) But I've spent a long time getting my pickup fitted (not to mention trying different pickups) and getting my mic positioned the way I like it in order to make what I (and others) consider to be a good sound.

 

[ZonGuy]

This thread -- and the responses -- seems to overlook the fact that the EQing is being done by a person who is onstage, not in "the house." The reference point is that of the bass players, who spend their time tethered to the bass, onstage. Whether or not the sound is "happening" for the audience will not be known to the bass player until after the set/show. *If* anyone in the house can be trusted to characterize "how the bass sounded.

You cannot be onstage and know how it sounds in the house, But you can sure buy a lot of stuff and blather about it on the internet as to how it sounds to you, onstage.

.

This is why I bought a wireless unit. I walk out into the hall and check my sound. I do it with electric, maybe I should do it with upright as well.

 

[Ric Vice]

Kevin, all the posts above are great.

I am just a local part-timer as outlined in my profile. But I've been gettin' paid to play bass since 1979, FWIW. My 2 cents, looking at your OP:

1) I much prefer using a high pass filter instead of a bass EQ knob to control boominess w/ piezo pickups on DB. The HPF-Pre is probably the latest and most affordable example of an outboard unit that does just that.

You will never go wrong doing this IMHO, Bolo is right on the money. Sometimes the Bass EQ knob won't completely cut the frequency since it's not actually designed to do that. It depends on the amp and how it's preamp is voiced.

2) As a generalization, clacky or honky mids live somewhere in like the 700-800 Hz region. I don't know if your GK allows you to cut those or not, or how big or small the Q is. Anything labelled "Contour" is usually a mid-cut, but more often than not voiced moreso for slap EB. And be careful w/ it for DB. The magic for DB is in those mids. I didn't come up with that, but find it to be true in gigging situations.

Although I can't tell you the specific frequency range, the midrange EQ on the MBE voicing favors the Electric Bass and once agian you can't totally eliminate it's effect. It's still there when the midrange is completly dialed out.

3) I always thought the Underwood and the GK matched up well from what I've heard in terms of input impedance. But maybe a preamp with a 10 Mohm impedance would help and sound a little less brittle. HPF-Pre again. Might be worth a shot.

I had a long chat with Don Underwood once and he commented on the fact the Walter Woods set the input impediance on his amps at 1 megohm to match the Don's pickup. Rick Jones also set the input impediance of all the new AI amps at 1 megohm because in his words the only pickup that actually needs 10 megohm is the Fishman BP 100. GK's have a 1 megohm impedance.

String choice and speaker placement (especially how close or distant you are from walls and corners, speaker on the floor vs. raised) are also in play. In fact, that's really all I tend to focus on from one room to the next. I just run the EQ flat. (What?? ) But I've spent a long time getting my pickup fitted (not to mention trying different pickups) and getting my mic positioned the way I like it in order to make what I (and others) consider to be a good sound.

As Bolo says sometimes flat is best, because if you can't get a good sound from the Bass, PU with a flat setting you most likely won't be able to "dial" one in.

Ric