Double Bass The search begins...

[Keith Rawlings]

I am now actively pursuing purchasing another double bass. Here is what I’m targeting in my search for (hopefully) my forever bass. I’m looking for a German shop bass sound; akin to an old Juzek or such. Possibly Czech/Romanian, but definitely fully carved as I’m attempting to learn arco technique after 25 years of playing roots, rockabilly and Americana primarily in the slap bass style on a Kay plywood bass. I’ve gotten heavily into jazz the last couple of years and I’m also wanting an instrument that can help me explore that side of music. Definitely something in the 3/4 size range with a 41.5 - 43 inch string length as I’m used to playing Kays; however I’m open to a 7/8 bass if it sports a similar string length. Preferably a D neck as well, but I’ve never played an E flat neck so if I’m digging the sound of an instrument with that type of neck then I might consider it—also only if it’s got similar string length. If it’s been repaired then I want those repairs to be stable and examined and checked out by a luthier.

I want something that speaks in the mid to upper register but nothing overtly fancy and preferably in the $3K-$10K range if at all possible. Flat back or round back — it doesn’t matter to me as long as it sounds good. I’m utilizing an Oliv D and G paired with either Spirocore E and A or Evah Pirazzi Slap E and A, depending on what music I’m playing so I’m hoping I can try out something with a similar set of strings on it as a reference point. Since Sprios are kind of the industry standard I think this will be the easiest thing to check off my list.

I’m hoping I can find something that just feels and sounds right. I’m extremely limited on the double bass selection in Corpus Christi and so far I’ve only had a chance to try out an Eastman hybrid (which was just okay) and a couple of more laminated basses because that is literally all that I can find in South Texas. It’s been very frustrating to have a sound in your head that you can’t seem to find in an instrument available for purchase. I am scheduled to spend time at Quantum Bass in Houston next week and I’m stoked to be able to check out some real instruments in a shop that actually specializes in double bass. I will also check out some places in San Antonio and Austin.

What are some things I need to be on the lookout for? I’ve read many threads on Talkbass about buying another bass but since I’m most familiar with plywood basses and what to expect when buying and owning one of those, I’m in uncharted waters looking for a carved instrument.

 

[Ed S]

You are going to enjoy the search.

I'll leave it to others more experienced than I, but my one advice is, don't think you need to get something that will be close to the Kays you are familiar w/. In fact, I am happy to have 2 basses set up quite differently - a 3/4 ply w/ guts, and a 7/8 hybrid w/ EP weichs. Very different feeling necks.

For a while, I was thinking I would want the 2 basses set up as similarly to each other as possible, but now, I love each one in different ways. Hell, I'm pretty darned mediocre in whatever I do on the bass, so I COULD use either for any sort of gig. But it is really nice to have the big hybrid when I'm playing classical, and then slap away on the ply out in a parking lot.

Personally, I don't think I would want to switch back and forth between D and Eb necks, but I imagine I would get used to it, and it would likely be less of an issue for someone more accomplished than I.

I'm not entirely sure how much bang the 7/8 size gives me. And it IS bigger/heavier to haul around. I don't do much above the heel, so the reach isn't much of an issue for me. Others will chime in on hybrid vs carved. My ignorant position is that you can go pretty far before you would outgrow a decent hybrid, and the hybrid might give some advantages in durability if playing in various environments - like going between AC and the crazy S Texas heat!

I went flatback w/ my hybrid, just to have something different than my roundback ply.

Here's a coupla questions - how are you going to know when you have found the right bass? I mean - if you aren't accomplished w/ the bow, how will you assess it's arco sound?
Are you thinking you are gonna find THE one true bass for you? Or do you want one which is a "good enough" step towards where you want to go?

Eager to hear how your shopping excursions go.

 

[AGCurry]

Keith, I hope you enjoy your visit to Quantum. Just looking at the website, it looks like a great shop.

As advice, I'll relate to you a recent experience I had at St. Louis Strings.

I had the itch to trade up to the next level, around $10k, so I brought a bow and the bass I wanted to trade. There was a bass I'd played and liked on a previous visit. I played them both and really couldn't get enthusiastic enough to do the deal, so I asked one of the employees there (Ruth, a young prodigy) to play them for me. She's way better than I am, and listening to her playing them helped me decide that the trade wasn't worth it - there wasn't a big-enough difference. She agreed.

My takeaway? Get someone who's really good with the bow to play the basses for you. What distinguishes basses at that level is what it sounds like arco. Yes, there are basses that are really nice pizz, but you don't have to spend a lot of money for that.

Advice #2: Getting around on a big bass is harder with the bow. Having tried a 7/8, I'd hesitate to buy one without a lot more experience.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

You are going to enjoy the search.

I'll leave it to others more experienced than I, but my one advice is, don't think you need to get something that will be close to the Kays you are familiar w/. In fact, I am happy to have 2 basses set up quite differently - a 3/4 ply w/ guts, and a 7/8 hybrid w/ EP weichs. Very different feeling necks.

For a while, I was thinking I would want the 2 basses set up as similarly to each other as possible, but now, I love each one in different ways. Hell, I'm pretty darned mediocre in whatever I do on the bass, so I COULD use either for any sort of gig. But it is really nice to have the big hybrid when I'm playing classical, and then slap away on the ply out in a parking lot.

Personally, I don't think I would want to switch back and forth between D and Eb necks, but I imagine I would get used to it, and it would likely be less of an issue for someone more accomplished than I.

I'm not entirely sure how much bang the 7/8 size gives me. And it IS bigger/heavier to haul around. I don't do much above the heel, so the reach isn't much of an issue for me. Others will chime in on hybrid vs carved. My ignorant position is that you can go pretty far before you would outgrow a decent hybrid, and the hybrid might give some advantages in durability if playing in various environments - like going between AC and the crazy S Texas heat!

I went flatback w/ my hybrid, just to have something different than my roundback ply.

Here's a coupla questions - how are you going to know when you have found the right bass? I mean - if you aren't accomplished w/ the bow, how will you assess it's arco sound?
Are you thinking you are gonna find THE one true bass for you? Or do you want one which is a "good enough" step towards where you want to go?

Eager to hear how your shopping excursions go.

Ed I was going to just try long tones to see which sounded cooler when it comes to arco. I do like Andy’s idea of asking someone who knows what they’re doing with a bow to play the instrument and see what it sounds like out front of it. I think I will try that.

The Eastman was a 7/8 bass and it wasn’t too bad to mess around on pizzicato. I just didn’t care for the sound. It was kind of plain and had nothing to it and for $5500 I’d expect a lot more.

I guess I’m being a bit too optimistic about finding my forever bass as I cannot consider myself anything other than a beginner with a bow, intermediate when it comes to slap, and somewhere in the middle with my pizz technique; but my LH and RH technique needs a lot of work. I’ve gone many years without a proper teacher and I’m working through getting rid of bad habits that developed from learning to play on my own with a teacher now. I’ve got a long way to go but plenty of time to get there.

I guess if I’m able to just find a decent step up bass that sounds good with a bow then that’ll be a start and find a forever bass later. For now I’m going to play a lot of basses and see if anything reaches out and grabs me.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

How a bass sounds when bowed is going to have a lot to do with what strings are on it when you try it out. A master orchestral instrument with brand new Spiro reds will sound bright and raspy, while a pedestrian hybrid with Bel Canto‘s will likely seem much more enticing. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to arco sound.

 

[fdeck]

When I was shopping for a new bass in the Midwest a decade ago, there were certainly a few basses available, but not the kind of vast selection like you might expect in NYC or the west coast. I learned several things quickly.

First, think hard about the restrictions that you've chosen. I was sure that I wanted a bass with X, Y, and Z. The problem is that narrowing your search, in a relatively small market, could limit your choices down to a very small number or even zero basses, or force you to consider basses that are best left alone. I don't know if it's a widespread thing, or merely something that happened in the time and locale when I was shopping, but there seemed to be a mystique about "German" basses resulting in those basses being sold at a premium despite often being in questionable or even bad condition, such as visible screw heads and such. Your mentioning German basses triggered that recollection, but of course the passage of time will uncover a totally different crop of basses available today.

As a result of that experience, I removed some must-haves from my list, and added one, which was Intact-ness. A bass in need of repair could be a great investment, or a delicate bass that is nonetheless a "cannon" in the section and is worth receiving a bit more TLC. I'm not good enough to need a bass like that. I wanted to focus on improving my playing, not dealing with repairs.

The other thing I learned had to do with previously playing an old Kay, or probably any ply bass. At one shop, I told the owner that I played an old Kay, and he reacted thusly: "You have to get the feel and sound of your Kay out of your head, no matter how long it takes. Too many Kay players end up with a new bass that sounds just like their Kay." I believe that for those of us who are pursuing a major upgrade while also hoping to upgrade our skills, part of the shopping process is actually learning how to play a nicer instrument well enough to give one a really good trial. For this reason, playing a few non-keepers is not a waste of time, and the shops understand that this is part of the process.

I ended up with some things I didn't think I wanted, such as a brand new instrument. I had to improve my bowing in order get past the Kay sound on a carved bass, and that was an inspiration to make arco much more of a part of my playing, as it is today. I got a new bow.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Just a perspective, and i know alot of money is involved, but rather than targeting a lofty forever bass i would just see it as trying to get definitive upgrade to your Kay and make sure you get a fair deal on the bass you end up with. There are so many basses out there, that you never know what you might gravitate 5-10 years from now as you evolve as a player. From a Kay, i think that means getting a bass with a carved top minimum, whether fully carved or hybrid. Make sure you are able to try the bass first, and are impressed with the sound and feel of play. If needed, bring someone along to advise on the condition of the bass if used, or go to a shop with alot of integrity. Some may even let you spend a few days with the bass at home before finalizing the purchase.

Agreed if you can get a little arco under your belt you can demo the bass that way, but don't obsess over it. You can start now on your Kay. If it's a quality bass with a carved top, it should inherently react well under the bow. Also, pizz is a big deal too for a jazz player! I'd happily buy a bass on a pizz demo alone and knowing a bit about the construction of the bass.

 

[james condino]

Try every bass you can get your hands on.

Patience will reward you with far more bass than you imagined for far less money than you thought possible.

You don't pick the bass; the right bass picks you!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

You don't pick bass; right bass picks you!

Absolut!

 

[JBarz]

If you’re going to be passing through Memphis anytime soon I have a bass that perfectly matches your description that I’ll sell you cheap cheap. -j

 

[Sam Sherry]

Flat back or round back — it doesn’t matter to me as long as it sounds good.

That is a substantial difference. You can often guess behind a screen in person. (On recordings or through a PA perhaps not as much.)
It's also a reliability factor in old basses, because large, thin pieces of flat wood tend to crack more often.
FWIW I grew up hearing the flat-back sound and it's what's in my ear.

My takeaway? Get someone who's really good with the bow to play the basses for you.

That's good advice for pizz / jazz too.

Getting around on a big bass is harder with the bow. Having tried a 7/8, I'd hesitate to buy one without a lot more experience.

When I first played my current 1850s instrument I hung out for an hour or more and said, "OK, wrap it up please." Jack Hanlon said, "Oh, 43" didn't bother you, eh?" I didn't even notice it was 43."

My advice is, "Try 'em all. When you pick one up and play it, don't read the specs, don't read the label and don't read the price tag." All that is for later.

How a bass sounds when bowed is going to have a lot to do with what strings are on it when you try it out. . . Make sure you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to arco sound.

The Word of the Lowered !
And it applies to pizz too. If you play a rack full of arco-strung basses and then walk a line on the guy with Spiros you will say, "Oh! Right!"

I removed some must-haves from my list, and added one, which was Intact-ness. A bass in need of repair could be a great investment, or a delicate bass that is nonetheless a "cannon" in the section and is worth receiving a bit more TLC . . . I wanted to focus on improving my playing, not dealing with repairs.

Yessah. 'False economy' is a very real consideration.

I had to improve my bowing in order get past the Kay sound on a carved bass

'Instrument' means 'tool.' Every tool I own can do more than I am able to let it do.

Happy hunting, Keith!

 

[groooooove]

bass shopping can be so fun or such a nightmare depending on the situation.


i still think a carefully selected sub-$10k bass can perform lets say 80% as well as a $20K+ bass. depends, obviously.

trust your ears. take your time, don't be a in a rush. for it to be a "forever" bass you need to put in a little bit of work.

insist on enjoying the process! you also may want to try things without knowing anything about them. I did this at upton when shopping once and it was surprising that some expensive stuff did nothing for me, and some $13-15k basses seemed to excite my ears the most.

 

[Ed S]

I’m looking for a German shop bass sound; akin to an old Juzek or such. Possibly Czech/Romanian, but definitely fully carved ...

I guess if I’m able to just find a decent step up bass that sounds good with a bow then that’ll be a start and find a forever bass later.

Just wanted to highlight these two lines.

It is one thing to search for ones "forever" old bass, if one lives in a major metropolis like NYC, Boston, Chicago, or travels to such areas. But I personally could imagine it being frustrating if one lived elsewhere and the pickings were slimmer.

In several years of pretty aggressively trying many many basses (tho my focus was different then) I found a grand total of ONE bass that really spoke to me. Unfortunately, they were asking $10k that I did not have available at the moment.

If I may continue to ask direct questions - why the focus on an old European bass? To state the obvious, you might consider looking into sellers such as New Standard or Upton - as I eventually did. You could get a darned strong bass from either for under $10k - either hybrid or solid, which would likely retain its value. Sure, you won't get the mojo of an old bass, but that might be offset by the possibility of tweaking the build to suit your preferences. Plus, you would benefit from a solid, modern construction. And they deliver - even to the hinterlands of South Texas!

But you already knew that!

 

[Ed S]

(Sorry for monopolizing the thread, but I'm REALLY bored w/ work!)

I was googling New Standard basses, and came upon Steve Swan's website. It looks like he has a PHENOMENAL number of basses, including Uptons, New Standards, old ply, AND several carved Europeans of various ages.

Category: Basses by Price

You might consider whether a cheap flight to a store such as that might be a "1-stop" chance to firm up your opinions/wants - as opposed to a number of separate visits to a number of shops which might each have fewer basses and less variety. Unless you anticipate a lengthy search as enjoyable...

 

[4stringfarley]

A slight drive from Austin, but there is a nice fully carved Romanian here for sale. Might be worth the trip, maybe not.
(not mine)

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Just wanted to highlight these two lines.

It is one thing to search for ones "forever" old bass, if one lives in a major metropolis like NYC, Boston, Chicago, or travels to such areas. But I personally could imagine it being frustrating if one lived elsewhere and the pickings were slimmer.

In several years of pretty aggressively trying many many basses (tho my focus was different then) I found a grand total of ONE bass that really spoke to me. Unfortunately, they were asking $10k that I did not have available at the moment.

If I may continue to ask direct questions - why the focus on an old European bass? To state the obvious, you might consider looking into sellers such as New Standard or Upton - as I eventually did. You could get a darned strong bass from either for under $10k - either hybrid or solid, which would likely retain its value. Sure, you won't get the mojo of an old bass, but that might be offset by the possibility of tweaking the build to suit your preferences. Plus, you would benefit from a solid, modern construction. And they deliver - even to the hinterlands of South Texas!

But you already knew that!

I agree. A New Standard or an Upton would be ideal but they don’t show up down here very often used and I would like to play one before I buy. I’ve seen an Upton ply in Houston once and I didn’t see it as a significant upgrade from my Kay. Granted it was one of the older models that they imported from overseas and set up in shop but it wasn’t anything that caught my ear. I have a buddy with an Upton Hawkes and he loves it.

My dream bass (Upton Concord) has already been priced out by Upton on a build sheet they did for me pre-pandemic but unfortunately my budget won’t allow that right now (maybe eventually). The New Standard La Scala is gorgeous as well and so many TB’ers play these that I know it’s a good build, but I want to play one first. Travel is also something I’m not willing to do right now unless it’s road tripping because of the Delta variant; and my work schedule won’t allow that right now. I’m fully vaccinated but I know two people fully vaccinated who ended up getting this new strain.

I spoke of seeking out a German shop bass as that’s the sound I have in my head from listening to so many greats play on Juzeks, Roths and such and the tone is so good. Of course these are world class players with years of experience behind them, but still — that’s the sound I’m looking for.

 

[SteveCS]

and so far I’ve only had a chance to try out an Eastman hybrid (which was just okay)

Was that the VB200?
I recently sprang for a VB305 (fully carved) for my daughter. Compared to the VB200, the difference in tone and projection of the VB305 under the bow was night and day, but the difference in price was not (£4300 ($6200) vs £2900 ($4400)). If you can track one down I would say give it a go - you get a lot of bass.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I guess its' been 12 years now but back then I plunged straight into a NS Cleveland, fully carved. Spec'd out with some simple stuff (knob tuners) and never looked back and don't salivate about other basses unless it was something maybe 5x the price (not practical). The bass is a beast and for me, blew away any notion that I had to buy vintage unless I really wanted that mojo. Older basses are gonna be subject to repair issues moreso than new ones IMO.

My advice: Go travel around and play a few and find the characteristics you like. For me, I loved the AmStd pattern and approach but wanted fully carved so the choice was narrowed down. I wanted cannon, something that was deep, could hold tension and longer string length, and the punchiness you want. Basically a higher end version of an AmStd.

It may help to find players who sounds you find affinity for - that will only help narrow the choice. Sounds like you sorta have similar tastes, so I would not dismiss the higher end Shen basses.

I wouldn't stress dimensions and what not - look for the sound you crave then either buy that very bass or find something similar in pattern but buy new.

I used to do Oliv G&D and once did Evah's for the other strings but Spiro Weich is it!

reminds me I should sell all my other strings.

 

[Ed S]

Very valid thoughts. And similar to my process.

I ended up making a "leap of faith" buying an Upton w/o having ever played one. I imagine some folk have done the same w/ a New Standard.

I'm very satisfied w/ what I received. It is capable of sounding far better than I am capable of making it. The neck feels very comfortable - definitely chunkier than a Kay, but not extreme/bad. I guess I'm suggesting that I am a little limited in my ability to identify the holy grail of basses for me. Hell, I doubt there is such a thing. Instead, there are probably any number of basses costing $5-8K that I would be equally happy with, and which I would not be likely to ever outgrow.

The ONLY thing I'm having the LEAST second-guesses about after 7-8 months is the 7/8 size. No problem at all playing it at home. Just not sure how much it affects the sound, and does make it bigger/heavier.

I'm kinda limiting myself in my ability to compare. I use my hybrid mainly for classical ensemble work, mostly arco. The sound and sustain continues to blow my mind. But when I'm driving a bluegrass jam, I really like my ply w/ guts. As my bowing bets better, I could probably try the guts on the hybrid, but I'm not eager to fall down that rabbithole.

The neck feels really nice to me - but I admit I am really not able to make terribly fine distinctions. I could play 100 different basses. Some few I'd think the neck felt overly fat, others too thin. But for me, I really don't know how much I would discern between necks among the majority of them. I suspect most of them would just feel like bass necks to me.

I am not for a second pushing Upton - or NS. I'm just suggesting a viewpoint that for THIS average player, seeking a bass that was "good enough" to take my game to the next level, I was able to completely satisfy myself w/ a bass sight unseen/unfelt/unheard for several $K below your max budget. And - IMO - my bass is beautiful - which is not a small thing. So much of how I compare basses is how they sound, and the action/strings. And w/ a custom build, you can have that.

I see people talking about one bass "choosing" you. Well, if that were the case, I might find myself w/ a washtub and broomstick! Just be REALLY honest with yourself as to YOUR ability to discern what type of differences, and how important specific differences are to you. Personally, I got really tired of the time and effort involved in trying out a great number of mediocre - or worse - basses. And I'm in an area where I have access to many times more basses than you.

Good luck, and thanks for tolerating my rambling.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Yeah, you're reminding me that a great instrument will reveal things about your technique and help you play better.

As a sort of business & personal coach for the last several years, it's better to seek "good enough" and concentrate on the things that enliven the activity of playing for you than to just have a "good instrument". A great bass should encourage you to practice and make you fall in with playing all over again - otherwise I don't think you got your money's worth.