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Double Bass The search for "THE POCKET"

#21
BOOK 'EM said:
Wow, Elvin was always the example of swingin extremely hard on the back side of the beat to my group of peers and mentors. George Garzone loves to tell the story of his rhythmic epiphany when he was playing with Elvin and was rolling toward the top of the beat and Elvin went *WHACK* and "straightened my spine out" and drug George back into the trenches. I don't hear this on certain early things (the Sonny Rollins live sessions at the Vanguard have an Elvin on them who's a little joyously reckless and out front), but all of the Coltrane stuff and "Speak No Evil" are beautifully back-of-the-beat to my ears. Of course, maybe he just makes me *think* that, but perception is all we have to go by.
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Excellent post. I've been waiting for someone to pounce on the statement about Elvin playing on top because I've been too busy to look up all of the details, but this post does a beautiful job. To say that Elvin played on top is one of the more bizarre things I've seen in print in some time. Kinda like if somebody wrote, "Pete Maravich, who went from LSU straight into the Hall of Fame, spurned theatrical ball handling and lighting up the scoreboard for 30 points or more on a nightly basis for more traditional fundamental basketball values like passing, teamwork, and defense". :eyebrow:


I always think of Philly Joe and Tony Williams as examples of "top-of-the-beat" drummers. Jerry Bergonzi likes to draw a visual representation of "the beat" on a piece of paper in which a center line represents the metronomic thing, and the bass might be on top of that line a bit because of the nature of the sounding body of the instrument, and the drums often happily fit just below that line a bit, and the soloist can swim around the whole space at their pleasure, and the wider the space around the line that the ensemble can comfortably move within the "better" (more under control, authentic, flexible, whatever) the music sounds.
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Bingo. Good stuff!
 
#22
Some guys have mentioned the 'Zen' thing in terms of the pocket. What happens with me is that when I get in a serious pocket with a drummer, all my body functions slow way down. I suppose one would think that they would speed up.
I've mentioned this to people...that I'd love to measure my blood pressure while in there! It seems I even forget to breathe, i'm so relaxed.
Anyone else?
 
#23
Chris Fitzgerald said:
To say that Elvin played on top is one of the more bizarre things I've seen in print in some time. Kinda like if somebody wrote, "Pete Maravich, who went from LSU straight into the Hall of Fame, spurned theatrical ball handling and lighting up the scoreboard for 30 points or more on a nightly basis for more traditional fundamental basketball values like passing, teamwork, and defense". :eyebrow:
Bingo. Good stuff!
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Well, Durrl, how about Zigaboo? :D
 
#24
Paul Warburton said:
Some guys have mentioned the 'Zen' thing in terms of the pocket. What happens with me is that when I get in a serious pocket with a drummer, all my body functions slow way down. I suppose one would think that they would speed up.
I've mentioned this to people...that I'd love to measure my blood pressure while in there! It seems I even forget to breathe, i'm so relaxed.
Anyone else?
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Don't forget to breathe for too long, P! Did you ever get that feeling on a real uptempo tune where you're going so fast, it actually feels slow?
 
#25
Marcus Johnson said:
Don't forget to breathe for too long, P! Did you ever get that feeling on a real uptempo tune where you're going so fast, it actually feels slow?
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This happened to me just last week. we recently switched drummers (in a story that would do VH1 proud) and the new guy had such better feel and time that he and I locked up like nothing. So as a result, he and I were flying throught the fast stuff and sitting WAY back on the slow stuff and just having a great time. The the horn players were right with us, but the singer was super annoyed. You know how these singers get.

Hey, Marcus, are you going to send me CD's or what? I'm waiting with baited breath.
 
#26
Arggh. Sorry, Kevin, I have two CDs just sitting on my kitchen island. Just been buuuusy. To give you an idea, I'm trying to make a couple of hours available this week to jam....with Art Lande! :eek:

If you wait a bit longer, I can also send you the new Gypsy Pacific CD, should be released any time now.
 
#27
Ahhh, Marcus, the great placater. How could I stay mad at you?

My friend Loomis just got back from a tv thing where he was hanging out with Willie Nelson. Another one of your celebrity buddies. You name dropper. It's cool, we have a live DVD that is very nearly done, I'll send you one of those.
 
#30
Marcus Johnson said:
Arggh. Sorry, Kevin, I have two CDs just sitting on my kitchen island. Just been buuuusy. To give you an idea, I'm trying to make a couple of hours available this week to jam....with Art Lande! :eek:
If you wait a bit longer, I can also send you the new Gypsy Pacific CD, should be released any time now.
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Marcus, Art Lande is one of my dearest friends....please give him a big hug for me!
 
#35
Marcus Johnson said:
Don't forget to breathe for too long, P! Did you ever get that feeling on a real uptempo tune where you're going so fast, it actually feels slow?
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Looking at Pawlie´s nostrils, he definitely has not forgotten the breathing... :D

The uptempo thing is really interesting. Many times when everything is nicely locked up, I notice that playing uptempo feels like it was only half time. It´s the state of relaxation, I guess. But it sure feel nice!

R2
 
#36
I'll ignore the impending hornet's nest, and sneak this one in...

I sometimes play with vibist Emil Richards, who likes to play at obscenely fast tempos. He turned me onto a trick that he uses to get through the fast changes...he subdivides the changes into threes over the pulse of four...I guess the idea being that the basic pulse slows down, you relax, and everything drops into place. I'm not sure it makes sense in print, it's easy to grasp if you try it out. It's helped me many times.
 
#37
fraublugher said:
no , i was not playing with him and i didnt mean in a bad way ,
he was probably just "stearing"

theres a difference between speeding up and rushing , is english a second language for you ?

i dont mean to offend
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Hmmmmm. I'm not offended yet. I speak American fluently, English is (perhaps) a second language. Shall I offer to give your lift my boot?

"A difference between speeding up and rushing" - well OK, the former being a matter of intent and the latter being a matter of unconcious behaviour (see, English!), it WAS hard to determine precisely what you were saying.

I HAVE played with Elvin and, please let me assure you, his time (at the time) was pretty impeccable. Still that big rolling three thang (see, American!), that (to me) sounds like it's towards the back part of the beat, but he left this "space" for the bass quarter note to "live" in that propelled the time and the harmony forward very strongly.

He didn't play loud, either.

Oh and what language is "stearing"?
 

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