The Short-Scale Six-String Club—for the original six-string basses!

[hypercarrots]

wow hellboy, you have almost all the new order obscure basses. is the starfire a good substitute for hook's eccleshall?

 

[MIJ-VI]

They come with RW, but LaBella makes flats that fit. I haven't tried them.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Hmm... $60.

Here they are for forty: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

These strings used to go for around $100.

I wouldn't be surprised if they go out of production soon...

 

[MIJ-VI]

I have a Hellcat...and I am not sure if flats would work well with this kind of guitar... I guess it depends on how you intend to play. I think of it as a lead instrument, and in my band I play it instead of guitar... I think the guitar can get a little muddy without the help of flats if you plan on playing chords. I like flats only for a true bass purpose...and I never use the Hellcat as only a bass.

I did not have the opportunity to play it before I bought it, but I recognized a need for an instrument like this when writing with my band. It started out with my putting down the guitar and writing leads on my 4 string, and decided from that moment on that I needed a bass VI of sorts (because chords/leads are somewhat difficult for me to play on a normal long scale bass...). It took awhile to track one down new but I eventually found one in stock. I had thought about buying one for a long time, but never had a true purpose for it before. As we don't have a bassist (roles traded off back and forth between keys and I) I have a lot more room to play with sonically and thought that a VI would serve me better than just a baritone.

Hi kslight.

Two points:

1) You're using a 'VI the way Leo Fender described his vision for this type of instrument in a Guitar Player magazine interview back in the mid-'70's.

2) One thing that the Hellcat VI doesn't have that the Fender VI does, is a switch-able high-pass filter (the so-called 'strangle switch').

Here's what I posted in another forum in regards to the Fender VI's HPF:

"I find the high-pass filter to be useful in removing the mud from chords played in the lower register, and for producing an overall timbre which is compatible with that of an electric bass.

The 'strangle switch' is what allows the Fender VI to replace the 2nd guitar in a two guitar band, giving the ensemble the electric guitar world's equivalent of a violin, a cello, and a double bass.

As for the drop in volume when it is switched on?

I adjust the amp's volume with the 'strangle switch' on, and then roll down the 'VI's on-board volume control to compensate for the increase in volume/bass response when the HPF is switched off.

I also installed a treble bleed cap on the instrument's volume pot to eliminate any loss of highs resulting from playing the 'VI with its volume control partially turned down.

The Fender VI's 'strangle switch' is indispensable in getting that classic Bass VI 'tic-tac' sound used on many, many recordings done in Nashville, and elsewhere during the VI's heyday as a widely used recording tool in the 1960's."

Such a filter could be installed on a Hellcat VI without making any permanent modifications to the instrument, by replacing its current volume control with a switch-pot (like the push-pull one its tone control already has which is wired to provide coil-tapping) and wiring the up throw of the switch to allow a 0.0033 mfd capacitor (buy & try a few different types to find one which sounds best) wired in series just ahead of the volume pot to act as a high-pass filter, and the down throw to short out the cap thus allowing an unfiltered signal to reach the volume pot.

 

[kslight]

Hi kslight.

Two points:

1) You're using a 'VI the way Leo Fender described his vision for this type of instrument in a Guitar Player magazine interview back in the mid-'70's.

2) One thing that the Hellcat VI doesn't have that the Fender VI does, is a switch-able high-pass filter (the so-called 'strangle switch').

Here's what I posted in another forum in regards to the Fender VI's HPF:

"I find the high-pass filter to be useful in removing the mud from chords played in the lower register, and for producing an overall timbre which is compatible with that of an electric bass.

The 'strangle switch' is what allows the Fender VI to replace the 2nd guitar in a two guitar band, giving the ensemble the electric guitar world's equivalent of a violin, a cello, and a double bass.

As for the drop in volume when it is switched on?

I adjust the amp's volume with the 'strangle switch' on, and then roll down the 'VI's on-board volume control to compensate for the increase in volume/bass response when the HPF is switched off.

I also installed a treble bleed cap on the instrument's volume pot to eliminate any loss of highs resulting from playing the 'VI with its volume control partially turned down.

The Fender VI's 'strangle switch' is indispensable in getting that classic Bass VI 'tic-tac' sound used on many, many recordings done in Nashville, and elsewhere during the VI's heyday as a widely used recording tool in the 1960's."

Such a filter could be installed on a Hellcat VI without making any permanent modifications to the instrument, by replacing its current volume control with a switch-pot (like the push-pull one its tone control already has which is wired to provide coil-tapping) and wiring the up throw of the switch to allow a 0.0033 mfd capacitor (buy & try a few different types to find one which sounds best) wired in series just ahead of the volume pot to act as a high-pass filter, and the down throw to short out the cap thus allowing an unfiltered signal to reach the volume pot.

I kind of accomplish this I think already with effects and amp settings, as well as mic'ing techniques and other processing for recording. I have several pedals that I built which I modified specifically for use with this guitar, both to extend the bottom end (overdrive) and to emphasize the bass register (chorus). One of my drive pedals I use as an "always on" type thing...I have it set so there is very little dirt unless you really dig into it, but having the pedal on contours the signal in a flattering way that clears the mud out without taking out useful bottom end. Consequently I then go into the Normal channel (with some of the Bright Volume knob brought in for more clarity) on a 59 Bassman RI which prevents the tone from becoming overly bright, and enhances the low-end. Seems like kind of a strange theory of signal flow, but I find the Bright channel to be overly bright when used in conjunction with all of the distortion pedals I own, even when cutting the presence and treble controls on the amp or the effects. Its taken me awhile to get everything to sound just right but I think I've finally got everything tweaked the way I like it. With how I have it setup I think chords work fine, but out of the box I think a VI takes some time to figure everything out...what pickup settings are useful for what, and the coil split mode is useful for taking some mud out.

Though your statement does give me the idea that I could just build what you suggest into a compact pedal to mess with.


BTW I don't know if anyone was paying attention when I had noise issues with this guitar...I found out that it was the room...moved practice to a different space in the house and its gone...even in coil split mode.

 

[hellboy]

Thanks. I didn't know that.

You'll probably need EADGbe to play Dreams Never End!

wow hellboy, you have almost all the new order obscure basses. is the starfire a good substitute for hook's eccleshall?

Heh. You don't know how close I recently came to buying an Eccleshall. I had to talk myself out of it by listing all the other things I could spend all that money on (trip to Africa, motorcycle, etc).

As for the Starfire, I wouldn't say it's a good substitute except in the sense that it's a well-made reasonably-priced semi-hollow that's really easy to play. With some heavy chorus and some EQing you can get in the same ballpark, but it doesn't really sound anything like my BB1200S, which is what the Eccleshall's electronics are based on. You could certainly do worse; I'm curious to know if a Casady bass would get you closer.

2) One thing that the Hellcat VI doesn't have that the Fender VI does, is a switch-able high-pass filter (the so-called 'strangle switch').

Yeah, good point. When I eventually get around to redoing the electronics on my Hellcat, a strangle switch is going in.

BTW I don't know if anyone was paying attention when I had noise issues with this guitar...I found out that it was the room...moved practice to a different space in the house and its gone...even in coil split mode.

That's good news. Mine is pretty quiet; while I'm not entirely happy with the electronics, noisiness is not the reason.

 

[MIJ-VI]

I kind of accomplish this I think already with effects and amp settings, as well as mic'ing techniques and other processing for recording. I have several pedals that I built which I modified specifically for use with this guitar, both to extend the bottom end (overdrive) and to emphasize the bass register (chorus). One of my drive pedals I use as an "always on" type thing...I have it set so there is very little dirt unless you really dig into it, but having the pedal on contours the signal in a flattering way that clears the mud out without taking out useful bottom end. Consequently I then go into the Normal channel (with some of the Bright Volume knob brought in for more clarity) on a 59 Bassman RI which prevents the tone from becoming overly bright, and enhances the low-end. Seems like kind of a strange theory of signal flow, but I find the Bright channel to be overly bright when used in conjunction with all of the distortion pedals I own, even when cutting the presence and treble controls on the amp or the effects. Its taken me awhile to get everything to sound just right but I think I've finally got everything tweaked the way I like it. With how I have it setup I think chords work fine, but out of the box I think a VI takes some time to figure everything out...what pickup settings are useful for what, and the coil split mode is useful for taking some mud out.

Though your statement does give me the idea that I could just build what you suggest into a compact pedal to mess with.


BTW I don't know if anyone was paying attention when I had noise issues with this guitar...I found out that it was the room...moved practice to a different space in the house and its gone...even in coil split mode.

Wh-elll..!

I suppose I can stop yapping at you about a 10 cent cap!

 

[boboshep]

Hi folks -
Great board here....
I have a '63 Danelectro Baritone reissue that I would like to TRY and make a short scale bass (E-e). If it doesn't work I am ok with it....I can use it as a baritone and still have fun....

however, I wanted to know a few things (and I'm sorry I am not patient enough to try and get through this entire thread! lol)

I know the truss rod is gonna need to be tweaked. But my question goes more to gauges that can work with my baritone's hardware and if these gauges will walk the line between tension and flop for the unique case this presents.

I saw that D'Addario made a set of strings .084-.024 for a bass VI configuration.

I know that the bridge on the baritone and the tuners might not have wide enough holes to accept the strings...but if anyone has that spec on the baritone I'd appreciate it. I'm also thinking that since the scale is SHORTER on the baritone than a short-scale bass, thinner gauges like the ones above would be better than something in .095 range for the low E.

Has anyone done this? Any words of wisdom?

THANKS!

 

[MIJ-VI]

Hi folks -
Great board here....
I have a '63 Danelectro Baritone reissue that I would like to TRY and make a short scale bass (E-e). If it doesn't work I am ok with it....I can use it as a baritone and still have fun....

however, I wanted to know a few things (and I'm sorry I am not patient enough to try and get through this entire thread! lol)

I know the truss rod is gonna need to be tweaked. But my question goes more to gauges that can work with my baritone's hardware and if these gauges will walk the line between tension and flop for the unique case this presents.

I saw that D'Addario made a set of strings .084-.024 for a bass VI configuration.

I know that the bridge on the baritone and the tuners might not have wide enough holes to accept the strings...but if anyone has that spec on the baritone I'd appreciate it. I'm also thinking that since the scale is SHORTER on the baritone than a short-scale bass, thinner gauges like the ones above would be better than something in .095 range for the low E.

Has anyone done this? Any words of wisdom?

THANKS!

Hi boboshep.

DANELECTRO DANO 63 BARITONE RETRO RE-ISSUE ELECTRIC GUITAR WITH 27.75-INCH SCALE LENGTH BLACK


She's a little on the short side... A 30" scale-length is the minimum required for a decent sounding low E string.

String length and gauge-wise, strings that are made for the Music Man Silhouette Bass Guitar MIGHT work.

You could also try the Link Removed (this is a good price BTW) which are made to fit the Invalid Link Removed.

Otherwise you may have get strings custom made.

And even if you do...

BTW. There's a post in this thread a couple of pages back which indicates that Rondo Music may offer an affordable Bass VI-type instrument soon.

We shall see...

 

[hellboy]

If you have a shorter scale AND you have lighter gauge strings, you're going to have to lower the tension a lot to get the desired pitch. People have already reported that a .095 E-string is too floppy on the Fender Jaguar Baritone (28.5"), and some find the .084 too floppy on a 30" scale; putting a .084 on the 27.75" scale length of the 63 Baritone and tuning down to E is probably going to be flop city, so I wouldn't even bother trying it if it means drilling the tuner or bridge out.

The rule is, if you shorten the scale length, you have to increase the gauge to maintain the same mass and thus the same tension at the same pitch. Short, thick strings don't vibrate very well, which is why you don't see any 25" basses with .150 strings.

Edited to add: personally I wouldn't go below .095 or 30" for a guitar tuned to low-E.

 

[kslight]

I've considered the Dano route at points before...but I think you are much better off either with a Hellcat VI or waiting for the Agile VI coming out from Rondo Music.com this fall.. If I didn't already have a VI I'd patiently wait and see if the Agile VI turns out to be a real player as in my experience Agile guitars have been a good value and on more expensive models I imagine they get better...the Agile VI is expected to be around $500 FWIW. Of course I'm still going to get the Agile anyway unless it is somehow made truly undesirable.

 

[baptistcreature]

I saw that D'Addario made a set of strings .084-.024 for a bass VI configuration.

I'm also thinking that since the scale is SHORTER on the baritone than a short-scale bass, thinner gauges like the ones above would be better than something in .095 range for the low E.

Earlier in the thread (around post #59 or so), Showdown posted saying that the .095/bass IV sets wouldn't fit his Dano baritone. He recommended the D'Addario XL-155's (the .084-.024 set).

I have a late-90's Dano baritone that I just ordered a set for, but it's a little longer scale than the current models I think. Glad I ran across this thread, I had just about decided to sell it.

 

[Tony In Philly]

Here's an interesting point -- back in the mid-70's I briefly owned a Fender Bass VI that I had lease purchased from a local music store that obviously was having trouble selling it. Back then people were really confused by them. Anyway, I had always wanted one and used it as a bass a la early Jack Bruce or Soft Machine's Roy Babbington. A few months later and feeling more comfortable playing gigs with regular Fenders and and Ricks, I thought I had all my basses covered so I returned it to the store to let them sell it to a collector. (I used to do lots of stupid things like that that then).

So fast forward to 2007 in the age of eBay and a new urge to own one after listening with great regret to a CD of 1966 BBC Cream recordings featuring Jack Bruce on his Bass VI, I went ape and bought a 1962 reissue, followed about two months later by an MIJ version.

So here's the difference. Both of my new ones use the standard Fender rounds that we have today. The result is, obviously, a much more guitar-like sound especially on the upper strings. The low three strings now kind of sound like a crunchy Rick if you rake on the strings the right way. But my old one back the 70's, strung with the standard Fender flats from that era, had a much smoother sound. It's best sound was described rather aptly by a previous post where it resembled that flatpicked 60's movie soundtrack sound. It also did I nice but slightly thinner Jazz Bass sound. I think back then it had two purposes -- one being to play bass and the other to get that "Witchita Lineman" lead sound. Oh yeah -- and not to mention the tic-tac, so I guess in reality about four semi-distinct sounds.

So, do I want to try the LaBella flats on one of mine since Fender now only makes a roundwound Bass VI set? Yeah, I probably will at some point. I'll probably try it on the MIJ because the bridge is much truer to the original than '62 re-issue which uses (I think) a Jaguar bridge. Also, of all three of them that I have owned, the '75 was the best. Nevertheless, I'm still glad I have the other two. I haven't gigged with them for a while, though. I get tired of people asking me how I get bass sounds out a guitar. One guy actually asked me if it was connected to an octave divider.

One more thing, a collector friend of mine has a real pre-strangle switch '61 model that he got from some guy (who apparently didn't know it's true value) for about $1000!!! The thing is worth at least 15 times that amount. He got it about ten years ago when the instrument was only beginning to be collectible. Anyway it's strung with the old flats and he also has a spare vintage set still in the pack along with it. The thing sounds amazing.

Finally there is one more application for the instrument I think should be discussed here and that is to use it primarily in a chordal capacity. Check out this guy:

Link Removed
Link Removed

(same guy -- two sites)

 

[lousybassist]

Back then people were really confused by them.

Believe me, people are still quite confused.

VI:s do draw attention to themselves too. For example, after the only gig at which I've played mine, I was bombarded by questions like: "is that bass of yours a baritone guitar?"
Well, no, but...

 

[Tony In Philly]

So, lousybassist, have you ever seen Jørun Bøgeberg play live? Just asking because he's practically a neighbor of yours.

 

[lousybassist]

So, lousybassist, have you ever seen Jørun Bøgeberg play live? Just asking because he's practically a neighbor of yours.

I'm afraid not. I've been aware of his existence ever since I read that Bass Player article about him a few years back, but as far as I know, he hasn't played close to where I've lived in that time. I'd really like to catch one of his gigs, though.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Here's an interesting point -- back in the mid-70's I briefly owned a Fender Bass VI that I had lease purchased from a local music store that obviously was having trouble selling it. Back then people were really confused by them. Anyway, I had always wanted one and used it as a bass a la early Jack Bruce or Soft Machine's Roy Babbington. A few months later and feeling more comfortable playing gigs with regular Fenders and and Ricks, I thought I had all my basses covered so I returned it to the store to let them sell it to a collector. (I used to do lots of stupid things like that that then).

So fast forward to 2007 in the age of eBay and a new urge to own one after listening with great regret to a CD of 1966 BBC Cream recordings featuring Jack Bruce on his Bass VI, I went ape and bought a 1962 reissue, followed about two months later by an MIJ version.

So here's the difference. 1) Both of my new ones use the standard Fender rounds that we have today. The result is, obviously, a much more guitar-like sound especially on the upper strings. The low three strings now kind of sound like a crunchy Rick if you rake on the strings the right way. But my old one back the 70's, strung with the standard Fender flats from that era, had a much smoother sound. It's best sound was described rather aptly by a previous post where it resembled that flatpicked 60's movie soundtrack sound. It also did I nice but slightly thinner Jazz Bass sound. I think back then it had two purposes -- one being to play bass and the other to get that "Witchita Lineman" lead sound. Oh yeah -- and not to mention the tic-tac, so I guess in reality about four semi-distinct sounds.

2) So, do I want to try the LaBella flats on one of mine since Fender now only makes a roundwound Bass VI set? Yeah, I probably will at some point. I'll probably try it on the MIJ because the bridge is much truer to the original than '62 re-issue which uses (I think) a Jaguar bridge. Also, of all three of them that I have owned, the '75 was the best. Nevertheless, I'm still glad I have the other two. I haven't gigged with them for a while, though. I get tired of people asking me how I get bass sounds out a guitar. One guy actually asked me if it was connected to an octave divider.

One more thing, a collector friend of mine has a real pre-strangle switch '61 model that he got from some guy (who apparently didn't know it's true value) for about $1000!!! The thing is worth at least 15 times that amount. He got it about ten years ago when the instrument was only beginning to be collectible. Anyway it's strung with the old flats and he also has a spare vintage set still in the pack along with it. The thing sounds amazing.

Finally there is one more application for the instrument I think should be discussed here and that is to use it primarily in a chordal capacity. Check out this guy:

Link Removed
Link Removed

(same guy -- two sites)

1) Yup! Soon after swapping out my MIJ 'VI's stock pickups for ones made by Curtis Novak (a definite improvement BTW) I threw on a new set of D'Addario XL156's and the resulting (multiple pickup) sounds out-Ric'd a Ric!

2) If I owned two Fender VI's one would definitely be wearing [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

--------

On a different note...

Has anyone tried strings which are made for the Music Man Silhouette Bass Guitar on any other Bass VI-type instrument?

These strings have good gauges for bass tone and guitar technique:

20w-30w-42w-54w-74w-90w (6 String Bass Guitar Slinkys #2837 - E Tuning)

However, as to whether or not they'll fit other VI's...

'Thing is local music stores don't carry strings (or anything) for these instruments.

Otherwise I'd drag my 'VI in for a fitting.

 

[Showdown]

I haven't gigged with them for a while, though. I get tired of people asking me how I get bass sounds out a guitar.

I've had that happen to me too. One guy asked me if my Hellcat was a baritone guitar. I explained to him that it is a 6 string bass, and he looked very confused.

 

[Tony In Philly]

I've had that happen to me too. One guy asked me if my Hellcat was a baritone guitar. I explained to him that it is a 6 string bass, and he looked very confused.

I think just about everybody on this forum has a similar story. I guess if you went to a gig with one of those natural wood aircraft carriers that would be more "socially acceptable".

 

[Tony In Philly]

I threw on a new set of D'Addario XL156's and the resulting (multiple pickup) sounds out-Ric'd a Ric!

If I want to imitate Chris Squire it sometimes sounds more like him on the Bass VI (with roundwounds) than it does on my Rick 4003! Go figure...

 

[Mudfuzz]

I have a Dano...

And... I have this thang I made