The "Stand Your Ground" Law....

[burk48237]

Yes. Those guns started their lives legally-- that was my point. Black market weapons aren't being imported, there is easy access to them because of our antiquated gun laws.

Not true, Street gangs in the US have been importing illegal guns from the Eastern block and Latin America for years. Also there have been several thefts at military armories which places a lot of guns in circulation. It is simply not true that all guns used in crime began their lives as legal weapons transferred in a legal transaction.

But we do have a problem with our gun laws. The ATF almost never prosecutes someone for attempting to purchase a firearm illegally. They pursue less than 2% of the attempts at illegal 4473 violations ( denied purchases from a dealer) in this country. It's a bit like saying all the traffic accidents are caused by old laws when the cops are spending all of their time at the donut shop while the bad drivers are running the light right in front of them.

 

[FretNoMore]

...
And some of the countries with the most lax gun control have very little gun crime like Switzerland.
...

Gun control laws have less do do with that though IMO, if you compare the quite special case of Switzerland with the US there are major differences in unemployment, culture, the spread in standard of living, most gun ownership in Switzerland has to do with military service and involves training, the society is often more "village like" (i.e. people know each other), etc.

 

[Nikoubis]

When in doubt, ask Cracked.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[hbarcat]

The "Stand Your Ground" Law....
It worked for Zimmerman.

"Stand Your Ground" law was not applicable to the Zimmerman case.

Try again, dude.

 

[kikstand454]

I'm sure a gun ban would work...... I mean.... look at the fabulous success of the war on drugs.

 

[Rich McCoy]

I don't blame guns, but I do blame people having access to them. Humans are irrational, illogical, and emotional the harder we make it to murder each other the safer we are.

If you really believe this then you need to arm yourself first, this will make it harder for some irrational, illogical, emotional jerk from killing you.
I really believe so many people think outside the bubble. It is like watching the news, people watch it and they come away thinking they actually know what really happened, then they start with their idealistic thoughts like, "If that were me I would of done this or that...".
Think about the Zimmerman case, there are two people who really know what happened that night and one of them died. Personally I believe Zimmerman should of been guilty of at least manslaughter, but there you go: who am I to say, I don't really know what happened. But from the sound of it I can't really blame Trayvon for being defensive under the circumstances. But anyway, the media had this case pinned as being racially motivated from the get go (not to mention that Zimmerman was guilty as sin). This caused a lot of public discontent, which was hugely irresponsible to say the least. Lesson learned: the main stream media is about as biased as it can get and can not be trusted to give plain simple information 99% of the time.
Now the old man in the theatre? From what I have HEARD he will probably get his, but I don't know. If the popcorn assailant said things like, "I'm going to kill you old man!", then the old man may have been justified. This type of random social behavior happens all the time, look at road rage. But Popcorn itself is not a deadly weapon last time I checked. Well I take that back, have you ever eaten the popcorn some theatres serve? That artificial butter is the worst.
So anyway, I guess what I am trying to convey to anyone who will listen is: the world begins and ends in your own immediate vicinity. Getting caught up in events which you have no practical knowledge about beyond hearsay will only cause you unwarranted grief and stress, and usually ends with uninformed opinions.
As far as gun control is concerned, this only means having a steady aim. The only entity you should put your faith in regarding your right to bear arms is yourself. Allowing someone else to make this decision for you, at least in the USA, is irresponsible and dangerous, especially considering the well understood fact that the criminals have them, and they don't give a crap about your laws or liberty.
And you can take that to the bank.

 

[Turock]

That doesn't un-kill the man shot, or the 10,000+ other Americans murdered annually with guns.

According to the CDC, 8,900 of the 11,000 gun murders in the US are gang related; that's just over 80%.
I think a reasonable assumption would be that majority of these murders are made by people with criminal records shooting others with criminal records.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

They'll sneak them across the borders. If the criminal want to kill people, they'll find a way.

How many are planned out killings and how many are spur of the moment (as per the guy "defending himself" in the OP)?

 

[Schlyder]

And of those 8900 of 11000 gun murders, I am more than speculating that most of those will be illegal firearms used by persons prohibited from possessing a firearm.

It is fact that law abiding citizens who own/carry firearms are not a public safety problem. Criminals and gangs are the 800lb gorilla the gun control advocates like to dance around, while they dance on the graves of victims. All the while blaming rednecks with assault rifles.

Gun control advocates also like to use statistics, of deaths involving guns, that include legal defensive shootings by law abiding gun owners, or when police shoot bad guys.

 

[AaronVonRock]

I like Chris Rock's idea of making guns legal, but a single bullet costs $5000.

 

[eyeballkid]

Maybe you should check the stats. For instance, deaths by firearms in the US are 4,000 percent higher than those in the UK, per capita. You may want to check the stats for Japan, too.

But the UK has a similar violent crime rate, sometimes even greater. Its just that there you are more likely to be bludgeoned or stabbed. Their violent crime is also more likely to be in your home where criminals break in and club you over the head because they know you're unarmed. In America people think twice about home invasion because they know the very real threat of buckshot or slugs. That threat also kept the Japanese from attempting a ground war with america on our homeland because they believed if they invaded they would encounter " a gun behind every blade of grass". Multiply that by 300 million and my God are you safe! Read about the history of the armies rolling back and forth over the unarmed populations of Europe for centuries and the atrocities committed for an example of what happens to the unarmed. I'll pick the chance encounter with a nutjob anyday over the possibility of genocide or fascism. By the way, I speak as a man that once actually had an armed nutjob come to kill me and who actually did shoot and kill random unarmed people in a bar.. Im still here, and I claim my right to self defense. Until some of you have encountered that experience and dealt with the chill of a close call like that all the other talk is just theory in the classroom to me. To this day when I think about it it really bugs me. I was his intended target that day, and quite possibly because im alive he killed other people in his insanity. I wish to God one of them was armed, or that I was. I thank God someone was watching out for me that day. He is eligible for parole (although' very unlikely) in 13 years.
Still, I dont carry. I pray I never have to, but I may in 2027. I dont even like to kill bugs. But I demand the option to if I need it to save someone more important than a random stranger to me.

 

[BawanaRik]

I'm sure a gun ban would work...... I mean.... look at the fabulous success of the war on drugs.

The War on Poverty. The War on Education. Etc etc!

 

[BawanaRik]

According to the CDC, 8,900 of the 11,000 gun murders in the US are gang related; that's just over 80%.
I think a reasonable assumption would be that majority of these murders are made by people with criminal records shooting others with criminal records.

I might be being bold but I can live with this. 9K thugs not on the street. Not such a bad thing.

 

[Unrepresented]

QFT - Excellent Post.

America would be a whole lot worse place if criminals were the only ones with guns, and they wouldn't have to worry about home owners or store owners being armed.

There would be a corresponding decrease in the availability of guns for criminals.

No, it was an M-14, and I was highly trained in using it for its intended purpose - killing human beings. Here's a picture of me receiving the Leatherneck Medal from the Colonel for shooting the highest score at the rifle range. I was also trained in automatic rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers, and hand grenades - not things I want civilians to have lying around, given the purpose for which they were designed. I don't own any guns now.

BTW, I was also a pistol expert.

Who's that handsome unbearded young man?

.gov had a much lower figure than 11K.

But as you mentioned when we were speaking about those innocent men being jailed for crimes that never happened, we have laws that ensure none of these murders happen in the first place.

That should be fine.

As far as not getting to vote for your criminals I can't see how that matters? Could you, perhaps, help me out with that? Maybe clarify the statement.

Thanks

1) Number of 11,078 was from here:



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

2) Our laws are not designed to prevent people from being shot. Our laws are designed to punish people who shoot people. There is a significant difference between those two positions and one I would like to see corrected.

3) I was addressing the quoted post about fearing government more than criminals. I noted that I do not get to vote for the criminal of my choice, only the politician --write your own punchline.

Not true, Street gangs in the US have been importing illegal guns from the Eastern block and Latin America for years. Also there have been several thefts at military armories which places a lot of guns in circulation. It is simply not true that all guns used in crime began their lives as legal weapons transferred in a legal transaction.

But we do have a problem with our gun laws. The ATF almost never prosecutes someone for attempting to purchase a firearm illegally. They pursue less than 2% of the attempts at illegal 4473 violations ( denied purchases from a dealer) in this country. It's a bit like saying all the traffic accidents are caused by old laws when the cops are spending all of their time at the donut shop while the bad drivers are running the light right in front of them.

Gun importation is statistically a minimal percentage of our gun problem. And I am fine with it being more effectively controlled.

If you really believe this then you need to arm yourself first, this will make it harder for some irrational, illogical, emotional jerk from killing you.
I really believe so many people think outside the bubble. It is like watching the news, people watch it and they come away thinking they actually know what really happened, then they start with their idealistic thoughts like, "If that were me I would of done this or that...".
Think about the Zimmerman case, there are two people who really know what happened that night and one of them died. Personally I believe Zimmerman should of been guilty of at least manslaughter, but there you go: who am I to say, I don't really know what happened. But from the sound of it I can't really blame Trayvon for being defensive under the circumstances. But anyway, the media had this case pinned as being racially motivated from the get go (not to mention that Zimmerman was guilty as sin). This caused a lot of public discontent, which was hugely irresponsible to say the least. Lesson learned: the main stream media is about as biased as it can get and can not be trusted to give plain simple information 99% of the time.
Now the old man in the theatre? From what I have HEARD he will probably get his, but I don't know. If the popcorn assailant said things like, "I'm going to kill you old man!", then the old man may have been justified. This type of random social behavior happens all the time, look at road rage. But Popcorn itself is not a deadly weapon last time I checked. Well I take that back, have you ever eaten the popcorn some theatres serve? That artificial butter is the worst.
So anyway, I guess what I am trying to convey to anyone who will listen is: the world begins and ends in your own immediate vicinity. Getting caught up in events which you have no practical knowledge about beyond hearsay will only cause you unwarranted grief and stress, and usually ends with uninformed opinions.
As far as gun control is concerned, this only means having a steady aim. The only entity you should put your faith in regarding your right to bear arms is yourself. Allowing someone else to make this decision for you, at least in the USA, is irresponsible and dangerous, especially considering the well understood fact that the criminals have them, and they don't give a crap about your laws or liberty.
And you can take that to the bank.

Owning a gun won't make me safer, other people owning less guns will. Unless I have my gun drawn and aimed at every would be criminal every moment of my life, and have the foresight to know when I will be attacked, I can be shot, robbed, beaten, raped, whatever. It's hard to play a bass with a weapon sited nonstop.

A gun in a safe at home will offer me a false sense of protection, but with any legitimate crime will do me absolutely no good.

According to the CDC, 8,900 of the 11,000 gun murders in the US are gang related; that's just over 80%.
I think a reasonable assumption would be that majority of these murders are made by people with criminal records shooting others with criminal records.

Downplaying the victims doesn't make their deaths any less offensive. Even people with criminal records deserve to not be shot in the street.

 

[Deleted member 79588]

Where do black market guns come from? They come from citizens who had legally acquired them. Reduce the number of guns and you reduce the number of black market guns as well.

Alcohol prohibition did not work. Drug prohibition is not working. Firearm prohibition will not work.

The government and police have no legal duty to protect any individual from harm (multiple court cases have affirmed this) so that means the security of myself and my family rests solely with me. I chose the most effective tool for the job and have been trained accordingly.

Totally anecdotal example here, but after living in Chicago where I had a shotgun registration form arbitrarily denied vs. Texas where I can carry a sidearm virtually anywhere except my job or a bar, I'd pick Texas as the safer of the two. Criminals aren't as emboldened when they have to think twice about getting killed - someone has to have a suicide wish if they break into a house in Texas at night. They're not all carrying guns either, I remember many many instances in Chicago when someone would get beat down with a pipe, bicycle lock, stabbed, etc. How is someone supposed to defend themselves from that? What if it's a woman defending herself from rape against a 250 lb. man? It's not right to legislate people out of their choice of self defense method.

 

[Pearly Gator]

Be careful considering "death by firearm" statistics. They include criminals shot by police.

Regarding tougher laws, to purchase a firearm today in the USA one must fill out form 4473 and answer questions about drug use, mental health and past criminal records. To lie on the form is a felony. There is also a waiting period to receive a purchased firearm in many states. The issue that needs to be addressed is mental health. To create laws that affect the sane because of the act of one mad man is irrational. It's like punishing the one who didn't do it.

 

[BawanaRik]

How many are planned out killings and how many are spur of the moment (as per the guy "defending himself" in the OP)?

Most are thugs killing other thugs. A variation on self cleaning kitchen apparatus.

 

[Unrepresented]

Alcohol prohibition did not work. Drug prohibition is not working. Firearm prohibition will not work.

You can brew and distill alcohol in bathtubs. You can grow weed in your spare closet. Consumption of either of those items is typically a victimless crime that your neighbors won't mind. Gun manufacturing is a touch more complicated currently than distilling plants and sugar into potables. Hopefully 3D printing technology won't significantly change that in the upcoming years.

 

[BawanaRik]

Downplaying the victims doesn't make their deaths any less offensive. Even people with criminal records deserve to not be shot in the street.

But it does give me a certain satisfaction that there is a sense of right and wrong in the universe.

That warm feeling from believing, if only for a second, yes there is Karma!

 

[Deleted member 79588]

You can brew and distill alcohol in bathtubs. You can grow weed in your spare closet. Consumption of either of those items is typically a victimless crime that your neighbors won't mind. Gun manufacturing is a touch more complicated currently than distilling plants and sugar into potables. Hopefully 3D printing technology won't significantly change that in the upcoming years.

On the contrary, I hope 3D printing does change that. Imagine how revolutionary it would be for citizens of oppressed countries to be able to revolt against their governments using a tool they built in their closet. I bet the Jews in Germany circa 1942 would have appreciated such technology.

Me carrying a concealed firearm is also a victimless crime.