Double Bass The Traeger Bass Book Is Here

[godoze]

Has anyone looked at Bob B's Edit from yesterday ?

 

[Mike Crumpton]

Just to make life easy Bob's edit is:

EDIT 8/9/2005 - Mr. Traeger asks that anyone who has questions about ANYTHING in the book to contact him by mail. (However, It would help to actually read the book prior asking the questions!) Mr. Traeger does not have an internet or email connection.
His mailing address is:

Charles Traeger
PO Box 187
Yulan, NY 12792

FWIW - When I wrote Mr. Traeger about a statement in the book, I received a very articulate four page letter of explaination back in less than a week.

... and nice to know Bob's still out there

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Tbeers]

For better or for worse, the guy is enthusiastic about his work. You gotta tip your hat to someone who even cares so much about bass luthierie.

I think that all the best bass repair-people in the world, C.T. included, should get together and write an all-encompassing encyclopedia on the topic. Sort of like how psychology has the DSM...........

OK, maybe that's asking too much. But I'd like to see more books come out.

 

[Eric Jackson]

...You gotta tip your hat to someone who even cares so much about bass luthierie...

Amen.
The same goes for all the pro luthiers who see fit to share their knowledge and experience with us via this forum and their websites- Arnold, Bob, Gary, Jeff, Mark, Martin, Nick, my apologies to those I've missed.
While I don't agree with everything in Mr. Traeger's book I feel it's worth every penny I spent on it, and much more.
Having said that, I'll shuddupabouditnow.

 

[uptonbass]

Eric,

See thats the thing mine and Kens chatter did not need to be taken to heart so seriously. Not a big deal...and sure we could have contacted each other privatley but this is TB and we were just being silly little girls.

As to my comments yeah maybe the second one was a little harsh but the others...I don't know how those are flames? You really picked them out of context so I hope the many lurkers read the whole post. Have you wasted your money, well.......you obviously dont think so and I am not about to tell you otherwise. It is nice that Mr. Treager wrote this book.

Are you a working luthier? Do you work in this field EVERY day? Do you have clients trusting you with tens of thousands of dollars for restoration, repair, and purchasing of instruments etc? See you can take that also as a "flame job" BUT it is NOT meant that way. Thats how you read it....right?

So when I read Mr. T's comments in this book I take them the way I do. Working with basses and yes violins, violas, and cellos all day long I have quite a few things to say, as you would and should if you did the same.

I can't think of a great analogy but if you don't understand the baby steps how can he discuss such in depth elements? His comments on things like the life of the bridge are just WRONG, thats not up for debate. Again, how can you talk about advanced subjects when you are WAY off on the meat and potatos? You can't be a suergon and not understand the common cold.

No hard feelings man.

Here is a good book please try to get past the word violin well worth the $380 +/-

Violin Restoration - A manual for violin makers by Hans Weisshaar and Margaret Shipman

When this book was written, preservation was not quite as much in the forefront of repairmans minds as it may be today, thats the only grain of salt I can offer to it's reader. Any of the other luthiers on the list know if this book, you better! Here I am giving away the gems........

 

[Nick Lloyd]

I'll agree that there are useful, basic tips in this book. However, like Ken Burns' Jazz Documentary, there are some serious flaws. Does Ken Burns need to be on Talkbass so we can critique his film? No. Does Fishman need to be on Talkbass so we can critique the BP-100? No.

If CT doesn't want to respond here, that's his choice. It's gotten a little personal at times regarding this thread; never my intention. My only aim is send up some flags about repair techniques that are short-sighted and cost more $ to undo later.

 

[jneuman]

Paul, I am referring to his mention that all Bridges must be replaced after 10 years because the wood is dried up. NO ONE I know of agrees with that except maybe the guy selling the Bridges.

I have had one well known bass specialist who has a good repuation mention to me the benefits of replacing bridges often. His resoning was that the bridge wood changes over time and transmits energy less efficiantly and less evenly to the top. Remember dry wood is more resonant. Wet wood is overly damped. Maybe the overly dry bridge becomes too resonant at certain frequencies and causes an impedance mismatch or something. I don't necessarily buy the old wood is good wood story when it comes to the bridge. The function is different than the rest of the bass wood. He said it was nearly impossible to persuade clients to do replace their bridges yearly (which is what he recommended) but swore that it totally made a difference. Maybe someone can do a before and after test the next time they have reason to take the bridge down just to see unless someones done this already. As far as the hardware thing goes, A beatup Kay with a totally shattered dovetail slot in the neck block can only be fixed with a bolt unless someone wants to pay the money to replace the neckblock which would cost more than the bass would be worth. My thing is why not make a feature out of this kind of situation and make the neck removable
-Jon

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My Comments are from experience with Both Traeger and Working on and with Basses. I had one small job done by him back in my Young Pro-playing days. He tried to convince me that my 150 year old Tyrolean Bass needed to be re-graudated and new Bass Bar etc as it doesn't sound as good as it could.

Guys, Luthiers, Look this up; The Bass was stamped inside clearly 'Hans Schirmer' in Black Script. The inlaid Brass Tuner handles were Stamped "Czechlovikia" (spelling?). How could this be 150 years old in 1975?. I Found out the Hans Schirmer worked in the 1920s or so in Germany. The date works with the stamp in the gears as the name did not exhist until after WWI.

My Point is this, If a Man Writes a Book and makes statments as if it's the Law or one of the Laws, then why can't we question his Credibility? I am sure some of the things he wrote are correct and some of his own combination and or experience but some just don't make sense to those that have been around the block.

I don't call myself a Luthier by title myself but I have worked on dozens of Basses when I was buying and selling for a hobby and maintaining my own gear. When Fantoni was waiting for Biase to leave the Jersey Symphony and take over the Shop as previously agreed, Fantoni asked if "I" could take the Shop so he would not have to wait another year for Paul. I was capable but it was not what I wanted to do. My training was limited and I was a busy player. I respectfully declined as we all can see. I often used Fantoni, Eibert and later Biase for my own work because I didn't like 'operating' on my personal Basses.

So to those of you that missed my Posts that I deleted, feel free to ask for clarification. Imagine going in a Shop for a Tail-piece adjustment and coming out with a new Sound post and Bridge as well (it must have been past it's 10 year warranty..lol). Then you see the Bridge was cut much wider in the string spacing than the Bridge that was on the Bass. Then,when you point out that he cut the slots wider than you are used to playing and ask him to match it to your old, comfortable Bridge (like he should have done in the first place), he picks up the Bill/invoice, already 100.oo over than I thought it would be for just a new Tailwire and ADDS $5.oo Plus Tax for the correction.

Anyones Blood boiling yet or is it just me?

So you see, I have previous experience with this man. A bad one at that that could have gotten much much worse if I would have let him Hustle me any more. I wonder if there is a section in the book, "How to make more $ in repairs and Pad the bill"..

Charles Traeger
PO Box 187
Yulan, NY 12792


Why don't you write and ask him?

 

[Eric Jackson]

...Anyones Blood boiling yet or is it just me? ...

Ken, buddy, ever since the book was published you bin foamin' ad nauseum about your one encounter with Chuck Traeger.
That was thirty years ago. Time to move on, big guy.

 

[Nick Lloyd]

As far as the hardware thing goes, A beatup Kay with a totally shattered dovetail slot in the neck block can only be fixed with a bolt unless someone wants to pay the money to replace the neckblock which would cost more than the bass would be worth. My thing is why not make a feature out of this kind of situation and make the neck removable
-Jon

This is simply not true. I have a beatup Kay with a totally shattered dovetail slot on the bench right now. The bass is worth around $2k. The repair (replace mortise-wood, reset neck) is well under $1k. Building a sound removable neck joint system would cost more than this traditional repair.

 

[mchildree]

The Bass was stamped inside clearly 'Hans Schirmer' in Black Script. The inlaid Brass Tuner handles were Stamped "Czechlovikia" (spelling?). How could this be 150 years old in 1975?. I Found out the Hans Schirmer worked in the 1920s or so in Germany. The date works with the stamp in the gears as the name did not exhist until after WWI.

Is it at all possible that the tuners were newer than the bass?

My Point is this, If a Man Writes a Book and makes statments as if it's the Law or one of the Laws, then why can't we question his Credibility?

MY point is this: You haven't read the book, and you haven't been listening to those of us who have. Traeger CLEARLY states in his book that these methods are his, and are not the only way to skin the cat. He says his methods ARE CONSIDERED UNORTHODOX BY OTHERS. The guy simply documented his own methods and made it available to others.

 

[jneuman]

This is simply not true. I have a beatup Kay with a totally shattered dovetail slot on the bench right now. The bass is worth around $2k. The repair (replace mortise-wood, reset neck) is well under $1k. Building a sound removable neck joint system would cost more than this traditional repair.

Nick-
Thank you for that correction. I was totally unaware that the mortise could be rebuilt without replacing the whole block. Every luthier I talked to agreed that the bolt was the only economically feasible solution. This pertains to a bass owned by a friend of mine who had basically written it off, so this is good news. One learns something new everyday. How do you go about firmly attaching the angled bits to the remaining block wood out of curiosity?
-Jon

 

[Sam Sherry]

Chris, Write and ask him what? I don't have a question for him. . . . Having dealt with the man, chances are slim I would ever buy one. I don't have any questions for him to answer for me. I have better sources if I need to know something.

OK, so this is all criticism and no constructive engagement then.

Eric, I am not foaming..

Ken, listen to the man.

Put youself in my shoes and then hear all the Brags about a guy that Tried to rip you off !

Actually, I AM in your shoes. 20 years ago I watched in horror as "one of NYC's best-known bass repairers" -- and it wasn't Bill Merchant -- personally hacked away at my bridge, leaving it with eight slots, after having dribbled varnish on it in a so-called "finish touch-up." But you have never heard me talk about it, or him, even once. I refuse to do so even now.

Also, I have NOT read his book but have read the "Quotes" posted here.

"Based on the dust cover, I conclude that the story has been told too often and the book is dull." -- Sam Sherry's critique of Hemingway's The Old Man & The Sea.

Try to remember that I have been in many Bass/Violin Repair shops and watched some of the greats work as I watched. . . . Please remember that when I mention a discovery about the Tuners on a Bass or type of wood or any other point I make, I have a good eye and quite a bit of experience looking at and inside Basses.

I have closely observed some of the greatest players ever to pick up the double bass, thousands of times over three decades. Unfortunately, that has not yet resulted in the desired osmotic transfer of skill or knowledge. I daresay I have a good ear but watching Gary Karr has not brought me to his level. Yet.

I even restored a few Basses myself and had guidance from some very talented Luthiers.

We all know that you have -- very wisely -- hired fine luthiers to work on your truly outstanding collection. My hat is off to you for choosing to do so. I don't believe you've ever talked about your personal, hands-on experience restoring basses and I would be sincerely interested to hear about it. (Considerably more than I am interested in a fifth version of your experience as a customer of Chuck Traeger.)

By the way, are you guys aware that I work with wood every day?

Yes indeed. I respect you highly for it and many others have said they do too. I have always found it ironic that someone who has done such a great service placing brand-new instruments in the hands of bass guitarists is so vigorously oriented toward ancient double basses, but there's nothing inherently bad in that -- it's just kinda funny.

I just wanna make sure you know I am not some novice out here with a bunch of theories read in books. I have about 35 years working with Basses and collect, use and sell Lumber for Instruments and Furniture.

On the other hand, as someone who built solid-body guitars and basses 25 years ago and who comes from a family of violin-builders, I am keenly aware of the distinction between jigging and tweaking an electric bass, on the one hand, and building or restoring a double-bass on the other. I know that you are, too.

In short words and with respect: Your description of yourself shows that your are uniquely qualified to offer a detailed and constructive critique of Mr. Traeger's book. I would be eager to read the results of your detailed, engaged review. I hope that you will refrain from harping on your guesses about the book until you have completed that review.

Over & out.

 

[Eric Jackson]

...and can criticize the man and his Book all I like...

Try to imagine how little interest I have in hearing about this again...

Ken, I'll make you a deal. I'll reimburse you the ten bucks plus tax out of my own pocket if you promise not to tell your Traeger story here ever again. Honest, it'd be worth it to me. Whaddaya say, deal? Then we can all get on with something more important, like mebbe watching varnish dry...

And if anyone ever comes on this site whining about how you tried to hustle them for ten bucks thirty years ago, I'll give 'em the same piece of advice. Minus the ten bucks, of course.

Over to you for the last word.

 

[Eric Jackson]

What happened here?!
Where did Brent Nussey's post go?
Brent, if you deleted it yourself, please repost. I believe your assessment of, and comments on, Traeger's book are 100% bang on. You stated my own thoughts more eloquently and succinctly than I could myself. If you're concerned about ruffling feathers with your comments regarding another luthier, fine, edit them out. Yours is a well considered opinion, from a sensible perspective, please lay it out for us again.
I was about to reply to you, I wish I'd been quick enough to preserve parts of your original post in a quote.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

No need for a last word.....







Do you have my address to send the $10.oo ? .. lol

Res Ipsa Loquitur.

 

[godoze]

Tort law; I'm impressed. ;-)

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sorry, my current employment situation apparently takes me too far from my KY redneck farmboy roots, which tend to be far more plain spoken. Let me rephrase, then, in the words of my maternal grandmother (god rest her soul):

No need for a last word.....







Do you have my address to send the $10.oo ? .. lol

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[Steve Killingsworth]

Can't we all just get along?

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