The ultimate 112 cab

[bdplaid]

I see you'r selling a Subway 112. Was it replaced by the MarkBass NY121?

No, it was replaced with a Subway 115. The MarkBass was unto itself.

 

[pfschim]

thanks for the explanation Duke.

 

[bassfootballguy]

I have had a lot of guys telling me to stay away from the neo magnets. Which isnt a problem. Does this bring the Aguilar DB series into contention?

I have had Aguilar DB112 cabs and they are great, to be certain.
But the cab I vouched for, Audiokinesis Changeling 112, covers way more sonic ground and while it might be a welterweight, it punches like a heavyweight.
First shows I did with it with different bands all got a, "What the h*** is that thing?" reaction right after the first set.
I told em it's thunder in a thimble.

 

[bassgrackle]

I have had Aguilar DB112 cabs and they are great, to be certain.
But the cab I vouched for, Audiokinesis Changeling 112, covers way more sonic ground and while it might be a welterweight, it punches like a heavyweight.
First shows I did with it with different bands all got a, "What the h*** is that thing?" reaction right after the first set.
I told em it's thunder in a thimble.

Where can I find these cabs. I don’t see the Changeling 112 on the Audiokinesis website.

 

[bassgrackle]

I think I can compare Mike's 1x8's with my 112's. His 1x8's have a few things going for them.

First, he's using a custom 8" woofer designed by the engineer who designed the Kappalites, along with most of Eminence's bass-cab-compatible woofers. That 8's linear excursion is the highest I've ever seen in an 8 that still has decent top end extension. I'm not going to get specific because it's Mike's woofer, not mine.

Second, the "Manipulated Vortex Waveguide" enclosure he uses imo has worthwhile advantages over vented or sealed cabinets. Disclaimer: I am an authorized user of the same technology in the home audio market, but I don't currently have any products that do so. My understanding is that the MVW enclosure does a good job of harvesting and using the backwave energy over a very wide frequency range, from the low bass all the way up to maybe 4 kHz or so. (The internal geometry deliberately encourages vortex formation, and sound travels more efficiently on the edge of a vortex, and my understanding is that the shorter wavelength energy "vortexes" its way around bends that normally would filter most of it out.) In contrast, a vented enclosure harvests and uses the backwave energy only at and somewhat above the port tuning frequency. And a sealed enclosure makes no attempt to harvest and use the backwave energy. In addition to the higher broadband SPL of the MVW cabinet, it also has excellent pitch definition down low, better than a comparable vented box and quite competitive with a comparable sealed box. And it has excellent dispersion, in my experience better than the cone diameter predicts. Which bums me out because good dispersion is something I think matters.

Third, Mike is one of these people who accomplishes as much as three normal people. He has done far more to advance the MVW technology than I could have, simply because he is totally unafraid to go outside the box with his time-consuming, brain-intensive trial-and-error explorations. His work ethic is scary.

My impression is that Mike's 1x8 cabs are not quite as loud as my 1x12 cabs, but that three of his 1x8 cabs (or a 1x8 + a 2x8) are louder than two of my 1x12 cabs (Mike had Eminence make his 8" woofers with a higher than normal impedance, such that three of them in parallel still qualifies as a "4 ohm" load). I think Mike's 1x8 goes deeper than my 1x12's and does so with better articulation. The notes really "pop" on his cabs in a way that makes me jealous, and I think that mainly traces back to his MVW cabinet. Anyway that's my impression of how his 1x8's compare to my 112's.

Duke how do you feel about stacking two Audiokinesis Changeling 112 on there sides? I prefer the nice wide foot print and allows for more amp options on top.

 

[Al Kraft]

Seriously, I think the specific driver parameters matter more than what kind of material is used in the magnet.

I'm no speaker designer (as you know Duke), but I think there could be some geometry/configuration of the magnet/motor/pole piece/voice coil possibilities with the smaller Neo magnets that would allow some deign options not possible with larger magnets. IIRC I read something (by a credible designer) about benefits of lower inductance when a magnetic source could be located inside the gap (as opposed to around the gap) and that this offered some potential benefits in voicing (specifically mid range I think). There were other things mentioned as well, but that's the one that sticks in my head.

I probably gooned that explanation up, but the key take away for me was that the magnetic field strength/flux density does not care how it's being produced, but the lighter weight and smaller size of the Neo magnet assemblies opened up some design trade space that was previously not an option to explore which could now be exploited by clever folks.

Obviously temperature and applied power may affect different magnetic materials differently, but at the end of the day magnet material is only one element of a total driver design. If Neodymium opens up design possibilities that outweigh the issues it brings that must be taken into consideration, the only thing that matters is meeting the design goals as efficiently and effectively as possible. I mean most speaker cones are made of pretty fragile materials that are easily susceptible to damage from most anything, but we accept that downside and haven't gone to steel or cast iron - the performance benefits of our material choice outweigh the downside which we find ways to accommodate to optimize overall design performance.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Where can I find these cabs. I don’t see the Changeling 112 on the Audiokinesis website.

Website is out of date. The Changeling is basically a Hathor 1203 with a second 3" midrange cone on the back of the cab, in an identical little chamber. There is a switch to shelve down the level of the rear-firing mid if stage volume is an issue.

You can shoot me a message or send an e-mail to audiokinesis at yahoo dot com, if you want more details... I don't want to get too commercial here.

Duke how do you feel about stacking two Audiokinesis Changeling 112 on there sides? I prefer the nice wide foot print and allows for more amp options on top.

Once your check clears, you can stack 'em any way you want...

Seriously, that works fine. The corners are thick enough plastic that they work as feet, and they interlock. We could even add feet to the side of one or both cabs.

The "regular" version is 18" tall, which translates to 18" wide on its side. The "Tall" version is 22" tall, so probably just barely wide enough for an SVT when it's on its side (the feet of the SVT look to me like they're about an inch inboard of the sides of the amp)

I'm still concerned that my 112 cabs would not meet your SPL targets, especially if the Fearless 112 didn't.

 

[Inara]

I use a Schroeder Mini 12+L for small-medium sized rooms. Only 19 pounds, and handles a 5 string well. I love the tone and how ultra-light it is. Available in either 4 or 8 ohms, depending on your needs. For me, I have the 4 ohm version, as I prefer to have a small 4 ohm cab and a large 4 ohm cab, and choose between them depending on the gig. I just like only dealing with a single cab. But for having two of the 12's, of course you'd probably want the 8 ohm version.

 

[Bassheart365]

The good news is power is cheap these days, so efficiency is becoming a much less important factor.

This ^^^^

 

[chris_b]

I have had a lot of guys telling me to stay away from the neo magnets.

That is only their preference.

Neo drivers are fine. . . . I've been using them for over 10 years and I regularly get compliments on my sound. For about 8 years I used Bergantino AE and CN 12" cabs (what a great sound) and for the last 3 years I'm using Barefaced 12" and 10" cabs (a huge sound).

A great 212 rig is a Barefaced Super Compact with a Super Midget on top. A great 112 rig is either of those cabs, depending on the gig.

 

[bassgrackle]

That is only their preference.

Neo drivers are fine. . . . I've been using them for over 10 years and I regularly get compliments on my sound. For about 8 years I used Bergantino AE and CN 12" cabs (what a great sound) and for the last 3 years I'm using Barefaced 12" and 10" cabs (a huge sound).

A great 212 rig is a Barefaced Super Compact with a Super Midget on top. A great 112 rig is either of those cabs, depending on the gig.

How did you like the CN 12? Why did you go away from it. And what did you use after that? I’m really leaning towards the REF112.

 

[chris_b]

How did you like the CN 12? Why did you go away from it. And what did you use after that? I’m really leaning towards the REF112.

All the Bergs were fantastic sounding cabs, but I have a bad back and the CN212 was 46lbs which was often very difficult for me to move around, even with a trolley. Each Barefaced cab weighs under 22lbs and that made my life much easier. With my Aguilar AG700 the Barefaced cabs have a huge sound. I can easily fill every part of the room. I get complimented on the sound all the time.

I believe Jim Bergantino says the Ref series are his best cabs and I'd believe him. Just one point. . . if you want to sound even better get two cabs. Another 112 or a 210 would work very well. Whichever you chose, two sounds five times better than one! If I had stayed with Bergs I would almost certainly have been using one of their amps by now. The whole package looks very impressive.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I think I can compare Mike's 1x8's with my 112's. His 1x8's have a few things going for them.

First, he's using a custom 8" woofer designed by the engineer who designed the Kappalites, along with most of Eminence's bass-cab-compatible woofers. That 8's linear excursion is the highest I've ever seen in an 8 that still has decent top end extension. I'm not going to get specific because it's Mike's woofer, not mine.

Second, the "Manipulated Vortex Waveguide" enclosure he uses imo has worthwhile advantages over vented or sealed cabinets. Disclaimer: I am an authorized user of the same technology in the home audio market, but I don't currently have any products that do so. My understanding is that the MVW enclosure does a good job of harvesting and using the backwave energy over a very wide frequency range, from the low bass all the way up to maybe 4 kHz or so. (The internal geometry deliberately encourages vortex formation, and sound travels more efficiently on the edge of a vortex, and my understanding is that the shorter wavelength energy "vortexes" its way around bends that normally would filter most of it out.) In contrast, a vented enclosure harvests and uses the backwave energy only at and somewhat above the port tuning frequency. And a sealed enclosure makes no attempt to harvest and use the backwave energy. In addition to the higher broadband SPL of the MVW cabinet, it also has excellent pitch definition down low, better than a comparable vented box and quite competitive with a comparable sealed box. And it has excellent dispersion, in my experience better than the cone diameter predicts. Which bums me out because good dispersion is something I think matters.

Third, Mike is one of these people who accomplishes as much as three normal people. He has done far more to advance the MVW technology than I could have, simply because he is totally unafraid to go outside the box with his time-consuming, brain-intensive trial-and-error explorations. His work ethic is scary.

My impression is that Mike's 1x8 cabs are not quite as loud as my 1x12 cabs, but that three of his 1x8 cabs (or a 1x8 + a 2x8) are louder than two of my 1x12 cabs (Mike had Eminence make his 8" woofers with a higher than normal impedance, such that three of them in parallel still qualifies as a "4 ohm" load). I think Mike's 1x8 goes deeper than my 1x12's and does so with better articulation. The notes really "pop" on his cabs in a way that makes me jealous, and I think that mainly traces back to his MVW cabinet. Anyway that's my impression of how his 1x8's compare to my 112's.

Thanks, Duke. My speaker mentor!
One thing I should mention. The amount of air moved in my MAS18 is around 350cc's of air. It is about the size of a standard 10" cab.The cabs using Eminence's "super" 12 (or its variants---same driver basket) is 496 cc's.
A "super" 10" cab using Eminence's Kappalite 10 incher is around 321 cc's.
"Non-super" (most standard cabs) 12's are around 300 cc's and 10's around 175 cc's. These are most of the cabs you'll see.
So---my 18 is about the same as a standard 12 (Aguilar, GK, Markbass, etc.). It will easily beat even a super 10.

The MAS110 is a more apt comparison to a 12" cab. It is 20" tall by 17 deep by 14 wide. Keep in mind that it slopes to only 10" deep at the top. 29#.It moves around 650 cc's of air. So it will equal or beat any 210 out there in terms of amount of air moved. It easily bests the super 12's.(in terms of air moved.
Tonal balance and presentation is a matter of personal preference. Equalling Duke in tonal balance is my pursuit. His crossovers are nutty, but boy do they sound great! I'm on the phone with him at least once a week for crossover schooling.

 

[bassgrackle]

Thanks, Duke. My speaker mentor!
One thing I should mention. The amount of air moved in my MAS18 is around 350cc's of air. It is about the size of a standard 10" cab.The cabs using Eminence's "super" 12 (or its variants---same driver basket) is 496 cc's.
A "super" 10" cab using Eminence's Kappalite 10 incher is around 321 cc's.
"Non-super" (most standard cabs) 12's are around 300 cc's and 10's around 175 cc's. These are most of the cabs you'll see.
So---my 18 is about the same as a standard 12 (Aguilar, GK, Markbass, etc.). It will easily beat even a super 10.

The MAS110 is a more apt comparison to a 12" cab. It is 20" tall by 17 deep by 14 wide. Keep in mind that it slopes to only 10" deep at the top. 29#.It moves around 650 cc's of air. So it will equal or beat any 210 out there in terms of amount of air moved. It easily bests the super 12's.(in terms of air moved.
Tonal balance and presentation is a matter of personal preference. Equalling Duke in tonal balance is my pursuit. His crossovers are nutty, but boy do they sound great! I'm on the phone with him at least once a week for crossover schooling.

Ummm so which is louder and lower? Im kinda lost.

 

[Ric Vice]

I've played and owned a Audiokinesis TC-112 and that crossover and custom 12 Kappalite are a near perfect combination. It will compete with one of the Epifani 3x10's. I went with one of Mikes MAS 1/8's because he now offers powered versions. Think of a QSC K8, only designed specifically
for bass, and on steroids. It weighs 23 lbs. Both Duke and Mike's cabinets are cutting edge, I can say that I have a lot of respect for Bergantino as well, but I was going for super light weight. The TC-112 is 30 lbs and at the time I got it, the EA VL-208 I was using was 48 lbs. that's a 18 lb difference.

 

[Ric Vice]

Ummm so which is louder and lower? Im kinda lost.

Reading Mikes post, as his cabinets get larger, they are both louder, and lower. The unique thing about them is as they get lower, the low end stays focused and clear.

 

[woodyng2]

Probably nowhere near “ultimate”, but i still like my Mesa Scout 12 a lot for its big booty bass.
That passive floor radiator design really has a nice sound.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

actually, the 18 goes a bit lower. All of the Vd (air moved) specs are a good way to get an idea of volume. Volume limitations for bass cabs is usually more the limits of excursion of the driver. Low frequency energy is a result of the pistonic movement of the woofer. The cone area x maximum linear excursion of the woofer. (Xmax) For bass players, the VD gives a good idea of how loud a bass speaker will go.. This is why an 8 can match a 10 or 12.
For instance
My 8" driver has a cone area of .0218 square meters. The maximum excursion of this driver is 9 mm. If we multiply the area x excursion we get 196 cubic centimeters of possible air movement. Now--with my cabs we are able to harvest and re-combine the entirety of the rear wave of what's coming off the back of the seaker. It IS measurable. So--we combine 196 cc's from the front and 196 from the back.This gives us a total of 392 cc's. This is the maximum amount of air moved.
With the Eminence Super 12 is the 3012lf (the super woofer) we have a cone area of .0545 sq. cent..The maximum excursion is 9.1 mm. It yields a total air moved of 496 cc's. As there is no contribution of the rear wave thatn496 is what that speaker will move. Now let's look at the Faital 12pr 300. This is used in the Genzler and other higher end bass cabs.It has a cone area of .0489 sq. meter. A linear excursion of .492. This yields amount of air moved of 240 cc's.
So--compare the air moved of the 18 of 392 cc's.
The Eminence super 10 is the 3010lf. It has a cone area of .0377 and a max excursion of 8.52mm's. This yields a maximum air moved of 321 cc's. So---the MAS18 at 392 cc's against a "super" 10 cab of 321 cc'sIf we look at the Faital 10pr300 (A step up from the standard bass speakers) we have a cone area of .0322 m sq.. Excursion of 4.92 mm's. So--a maximum amount of air moved of 158 cc's. So--in this case the 18 moves more air than a 210
My 10 has a maximum amount of air moved of 642 cc's for comparison.
If you look at Barefaced's site Alex also uses the VD (air moved) spec to compare respective outputs of his cabs. It's a useful yardstick.

 

[jeff7bass]

I’ve been considering a pair of 8 ohm EX112’s, but my latest GAS for the perfect 112 is for RevSound - I have a pair of RS112’s on order (one with tweeter & one NT). I have also tried many: Aguilar, Mesa Subway, Genzler BA 12-3, F112 over the last 10 years or so, after having used a pair of 210 cabs from around 1990 to 2002. I liked the idea of smaller cabs, but still looking for the right one. I’m hoping the RS112’s will be the ones!

Update on the RS112's? Are they the RS-112T's?

 

[bwoodman]

Update on the RS112's? Are they the RS-112T's?

They’re due next month - one is a RS112T & the other one is a “NT”