Lazy people trying to justify their ignorance.
I'm not trying to say everyone has to learn theory, just don't try to elevate ignorance over knowledge. The people who can play brilliantly without knowing any theory are few and far between.
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Theory vs playing by intuition?
- Thread starter 6stringvince
- Start date
I'm not trying to say everyone has to learn theory, just don't try to elevate ignorance over knowledge. The people who can play brilliantly without knowing any theory are few and far between.
lfmn16 said:
I hardly think that lack of formal education = lazyness. In the case Sheehan or Hendrix it's been stated above that they lived with their guitars strapped on. As Roy stated above reg. Sheehan "there's a guy who really wants it". I'm sure that hard work has been a constant for every succesful musician, educated or not.
Exactly what he said. It's not and either/or question. Knowing theory and playing with your heart and not mutually exclusive concepts.
99% of people bashing theory are those too lazy to put in the time to learn. They justify this laziness with "I play from the heart, man" nonsense. If you don't want to take the time to learn it (which is much easier today with all the resources available), that's fine. You may still be a great player. But, don't try to claim it's because it will hinder your "heart" playing. That's the red flag that you're just lazy.
"Formal Education"? You don't have to go to music school or college to learn theory. Buy some books, watch instructional videos, take some lessons, learn your instrument. Don't try to characaterize this as an elitist "formal music education" thing. It's about putting in the hard work and not just jamming all the time. More importantly, the original question goes to those who try to excuse their lack of knowledge or work ethic to learn theory by claiming that it's bad for soulful playing.
I think the problem with threads like this is that right or wrong, everibody tries to justify whatever path they have choosen, even the very educated working at Walmart (no disrespect ment, life is tough and we all do what we can).
I think the issue is that you never hear someone who has learned sufficient music theory claim that they wish they hadn't. Some people may not see the need to learn theory, and that is fine, but to say that it can have a negative impact is a myth. The claim comes from people who don't have a strong theoretical background and don't know how to apply it. One shouldn't just scratch the surface and expect to find gold.
To put it another way; I am into photography. I am not really interested in learning about lighting and composition. It is a casual part time hobby, and I just enjoy taking macro photos of cool stuff. I think some of the shots come out well. (Some not so much
) But I would never go on a photography forum and say that learning about lighting would limit my creativity.
To put it another way; I am into photography. I am not really interested in learning about lighting and composition. It is a casual part time hobby, and I just enjoy taking macro photos of cool stuff. I think some of the shots come out well. (Some not so much
) But I would never go on a photography forum and say that learning about lighting would limit my creativity.
On any given day, you can see the threads on the front page read something like this:
Learning theory ruins creativity
Working on technique ruins your feel
Learning to read standard notation is for elitists
It isn't important to have a quality instrument
This makes no sense to me.
Learning theory ruins creativity
Working on technique ruins your feel
Learning to read standard notation is for elitists
It isn't important to have a quality instrument
This makes no sense to me.
I learned it 10 years of formal training blah,blah,blah and it is helpful for understanding why a bass player has chosen to play a certain run over a certain chord. But I also feel whatever works for you. I know people who play bass by "the book" and I know others self taught. The book guy as I will refer to him plays great but in my opinion without feeling or emotion he plays the notes he reads and nothing more nothing less. And the guy self taught has impressed me many times with his drive,ambition and self expression trying some how to mastering his craft on his own this is his life's passion. Oh yeah part of my theory also included ear training or Aural skills yeah learning by ear
NickyBass said:
Somehow the thread has turned in to "is formal education bad for you?", I think the initial question was which is the better means to an end?
I don't think anybody has desputed that at least some education is good.
Do you think your 10 years of formal training made you play soullessly? I'm going to bet you don't. So why would you think it would work that way for everyone else?
Quite honestly, it's the worst argument you could give in favor of not learning this stuff.
I'm no Jaco-phile, so maybe I don't have this right, but IIRC Jaco made the distinction that he was formally self-taught.
Meaning he taught himself theory. Not that he became the player he was by ignoring theory and playing whatever sounded good to him.
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Learning Chordal Theory and reading is not hard, and it helps you communicate your ideas as well as understanding the musical ideas of others. Learning good musical information makes you a better musician and if you want to enter the professional gigging world, more employable
This will not hurt your feel and heart for your music that you love, It enhances it!
This will not hurt your feel and heart for your music that you love, It enhances it!
Context is everything. First, I never said it had to be FORMAL education. Second, I'm not saying everyone should get an education; formal or informal (who am I to say that everyone should try to be the best possible player they are capable of becoming, if they are already already happy with the way they play). If you read the post I was commenting on it was "How could more knowledge of your craft POSSIBLY hurt you?" My comment is not about people who are ignorant , it's about people who try to elevate ignorance OVER knowledge.
The guy that studied for 10 years and plays like a robot would likely play like a robot if he had never studied music. Learning theory doesn't rob you of creativity, inappropriate application of that theory makes you a robot. If you learn the rules, you need to know them well enough to know when to break them. Music theory only provides guidelines regarding what other people have typically done in similar situation.
I imagine you could learn to play with a book, but it would have to be a very small thin book so you could use it like a pick.
I agree with the first response. Learning theory is like knowing your way to the store. Maybe you can drive around for hours until you find a store, or you can drive right to it if you know the correct path to take.
Playing bass requires two things. You must understand how music is arranged, and put together. You also must be able to work with the kick, and snare drum to stay in the groove. After 20 years as a pro bassist I'll tell you this: Never limit yourself to just getting by with this, or that. Learn everything you can from anywhere you can, and your understanding of bass guitar, and the role it plays in music will evolve accordingly. I still learn, and improve all the time. Good luck to you!
Playing bass requires two things. You must understand how music is arranged, and put together. You also must be able to work with the kick, and snare drum to stay in the groove. After 20 years as a pro bassist I'll tell you this: Never limit yourself to just getting by with this, or that. Learn everything you can from anywhere you can, and your understanding of bass guitar, and the role it plays in music will evolve accordingly. I still learn, and improve all the time. Good luck to you!
What is Intuition?
Intuition is part of Cognitive learning
What is Cognitive learning?
Cognitive learning is when you experience something for yourself and use a number of thought processes, some of which are to explore, experiment, perceive, rationalize, evaluate, justify, remember and call apon what you experienced.
Theory is Intuition written down, Music theory is the collective thoughts and observations of the intuition involved in making music.
Now for those that do not study theory, or want to study theory, they are making the correct decision based on what the know.
Those that have studied theory are making the correct decision based on what they know.
What we know and rationalise now, may not be the same in the future....we will add new information that will change the way we rationalised previous conclusions to come to new ones.
Because we cannot "turn off learning" we are always adding to our Cognitive learning.
Learning takes two forms, the intentional and the un-intentional.
Music theory falls in to the intentional, because it is a premiditated thought to learn the explanation of what is happening.... so why it is happening helps justify the explanation.
So, any player that plays by intuition does indeed use theory, they just do not realise they do, they do not have enough experience to come to the correct conclussion that they do so.
They also cannot work out if they are just a lazy player going through the motions of an intuitive player..that naivity escapes them.
So do not confuse an intuitive player with a naive or lazy player.
Expose a truly intuitive player to theory and he will want to expore and develop it because his intuition of it will get the better of him.
It is the intuitive player that learns theory, because they know it can only help them become better.
Intuition is part of Cognitive learning
What is Cognitive learning?
Cognitive learning is when you experience something for yourself and use a number of thought processes, some of which are to explore, experiment, perceive, rationalize, evaluate, justify, remember and call apon what you experienced.
Theory is Intuition written down, Music theory is the collective thoughts and observations of the intuition involved in making music.
Now for those that do not study theory, or want to study theory, they are making the correct decision based on what the know.
Those that have studied theory are making the correct decision based on what they know.
What we know and rationalise now, may not be the same in the future....we will add new information that will change the way we rationalised previous conclusions to come to new ones.
Because we cannot "turn off learning" we are always adding to our Cognitive learning.
Learning takes two forms, the intentional and the un-intentional.
Music theory falls in to the intentional, because it is a premiditated thought to learn the explanation of what is happening.... so why it is happening helps justify the explanation.
So, any player that plays by intuition does indeed use theory, they just do not realise they do, they do not have enough experience to come to the correct conclussion that they do so.
They also cannot work out if they are just a lazy player going through the motions of an intuitive player..that naivity escapes them.
So do not confuse an intuitive player with a naive or lazy player.
Expose a truly intuitive player to theory and he will want to expore and develop it because his intuition of it will get the better of him.
It is the intuitive player that learns theory, because they know it can only help them become better.
