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"There's no money above the 5th fret"
- Thread starter TexasThunder
- Start date
I think it has less to do with the audience and more to do with some guitar players who want to call all the shots.I can see how this wouldn't be obvious at first, so not a silly question at all.
It refers to the bottom five frets of all (presumably four) strings, and the range of notes covered by them. What that expression means is that most paying audiences aren't interested in bassists who play "all that fancy stuff" further up the neck; they respond best to the effect of a player who keeps it simple, and stays down in that range.
The truth of this expression is not something we have consensus on
It's similar to the one about the difference between a jazz guitarist and a rock guitarist: one plays four chords to twenty thousand people...
Funny thing is, many of the same guitarists see no problem with cranking up the lows on their amp so that they are essentially masking the bass's money notes. In their opinion, this approach creates a nice warm guitar sound that integrates perfectly with the bass. Essentially their idea is that you should not be able to hear the bass clearly, as the bass's role is just to thicken up the guitar's sound a bit more. In other words the bass's role is 100% foundational and there is no room for bassist's individuality to shine through.
In my experience this approach clutters up the low mids, sounds awful, and leaves no room in the mix for vocals, drums, or keys--but many guitarist think it sounds great. Actually it probably does sound great 3-4' in front of the guitar amp, but everywhere else,
. Trying to convince a guitar player to change their ways is often an effort in futility. They think because they have gotten away with this approach for decades that it works great and your nuts for suggesting that they do something else. No willingness to negotiate or compromise, because the guitar player thinks he/she knows what is best. Arrogance and ignorance is a bad combination
. 
I heard it as "all the money is in the first five frets." Also, "there are hundreds of dollars to be made in the music business."
It's not meant to be taken literally.
It's something you say to a [hopefully, green] bass player who is screwing off in the upper range too much for the song, probably way too busy, experimenting with what he or she can do technically, as opposed to what he or she should do arrangement-wise. It's educational in nature. It's trying to make the point that you need to think about the fact that most paying gigs ask for the bass to play a traditional role in the arrangement, and you need to play to suit the gig at hand – not your own curiosities, maximum abilities, or desires on the instrument.
Kind of like saying, "It's called a bass, not a treble" to a guy at the folk/country/blues jam playing with a modern clattery, twangy tone.
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Staying low gives fatter sounding notes and keeps the bass line out of the register of the other instruments. In many forms of music, the other players prefer that the bass line contain a fair amount of root notes to clearly delineate the chords. For pumping roots, root-fives and triadic walking, the first five frets provide all the notes needed.
Staying within the first five frets and using open strings, it's possible to play a full octave in all 12 keys. Not necessarily root to root, though.
For instance, D major starting on the E string:
E F# G A
A B C# D
D E F# G
G A B C
So you can't go D to D but you can go E to E in D major (E dorian). To play a D major scale:
open D, open E, F#, G, open A, B, C#, open D (again)
How about Gb (F#) major :
F Gb Ab
Bb Cb (B) Db
Eb F Gb
Ab Bb Cb (B)
Etc.
When I started gigging on DB playing folk and blues gigs I was able to stay in that part of the neck all night, which helped with intonation (the open strings are reference pitches). Over time I worked on being able to navigate the entire neck, but even today I'm down there 75% of the time.
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It's like the old joke:
You can get surprisingly far on surprisingly little. But don't be like Jimmy.
Jimmy came home from his first bass lesson. His dad asked him how it went. "Today we learned the first four notes on the E string."
A week later, Jimmy came home from his second lesson and his dad asked him how it went. "Today we learned the first four notes on the A string."
A week after that, Jimmy came home late. Dad asked, "Where were you? Did you learn the D string today?"
"Nope. Today I had a gig."
A week later, Jimmy came home from his second lesson and his dad asked him how it went. "Today we learned the first four notes on the A string."
A week after that, Jimmy came home late. Dad asked, "Where were you? Did you learn the D string today?"
"Nope. Today I had a gig."
You can get surprisingly far on surprisingly little. But don't be like Jimmy.
JeezyMcNuggles
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- Feb 23, 2018
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The saying is actually, "no cash above the hash" referring to the 12th fret double dot mark. But, whatever. If you can play well enough using 4 notes on 4 strings, and never moving your arm, you are far better than I am. And you're an isometric god. I can't imagine holding my arm in one position for 3 hours and still be able to fret notes. That's insane. Those people rock.
It does sound really good.... when you are playing the guitar by yourself.I think it has less to do with the audience and more to do with some guitar players who want to call all the shots.
Funny thing is, many of the same guitarists see no problem with cranking up the lows on their amp so that they are essentially masking the bass's money notes. In their opinion, this approach creates a nice warm guitar sound that integrates perfectly with the bass. Essentially their idea is that you should not be able to hear the bass clearly, as the bass's role is just to thicken up the guitar's sound a bit more. In other words the bass's role is 100% foundational and there is no room for bassist's individuality to shine through.
In my experience this approach clutters up the low mids, sounds awful, and leaves no room in the mix for vocals, drums, or keys--but many guitarist think it sounds great. Actually it probably does sound great 3-4' in front of the guitar amp, but everywhere else,
Trying to convince a guitar player to change their ways is often an effort in futility. They think because they have gotten away with this approach for decades that it works great and your nuts for suggesting that they do something else. No willingness to negotiate or compromise, because the guitar player thinks he/she knows what is best. Arrogance and ignorance is a bad combination
I remember playing a gig once on guitar many years ago. I was not a very good player at all. I had my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and had a pretty thin tone. The next band had a very good guitar player with a Mesa Boogie rig that I thought sounded amazing when he was setting up. He was 100 times the player I was. After the gig the sound man came up to me and told me he loved my guitar tone. I said "well I'm not that guy but thanks." And he said "nah. He doesn't know how to dial for a mix. He's eating up the whole sonic spectrum."
I think that was the point where I realized that what is needed for a mix may be very different from what sounds good by itself.
You could have played that A on the G string. Technically that's way down there by the nut!
I always took it to mean that one could have a great career (or a very fulfilling lifetime of fun) as a bassist by playing nothing more than the simplest lines that the song calls for. I think it's been true over time, and I think it's also a good approach if you want to be appreciated by the musicians you play with.
All that being said, it take all kinds, and bass is a really beautiful melodic tool as well.
All that being said, it take all kinds, and bass is a really beautiful melodic tool as well.
My restored (because it was run hard and put away wet) G&L L-1000 has a maple neck & fretbd that has the wear spots front and back like the original owner only played G A & C.
I call it the Derek and the Dominoes neck. Would not let my tech touch it. Body all done but those smooth heavily worn frets make it play like buttah!
I call it the Derek and the Dominoes neck. Would not let my tech touch it. Body all done but those smooth heavily worn frets make it play like buttah!
you are definitely over thinking this one.
the idea is the jaco stuff won't pay your bills. solid low end is what people want to hire.
the idea is the jaco stuff won't pay your bills. solid low end is what people want to hire.
I see where you are coming from. Playing high up on the low strings actually gives you a fatter toe than low on the high strings. This is used a lot in reggae. But yeah like everyone else is saying, most bands want the bass player to stay in that deep funky sonic space....but then again some don't 
I think that saying came out of the studio scene where producers and song writers rule and they just want to pay you to play your part and serve the song.
If you are some kind of a virtuoso then it is probably your band and you pay the other musicians to stay out of your way and support your song......and then there are Flea, John Entwistle, Phil Lesh etc.......different rules apply
I think that saying came out of the studio scene where producers and song writers rule and they just want to pay you to play your part and serve the song.
If you are some kind of a virtuoso then it is probably your band and you pay the other musicians to stay out of your way and support your song......and then there are Flea, John Entwistle, Phil Lesh etc.......different rules apply
yea, it's always intended as a tongue in cheek joke about playing roots in simplistic bass parts for simplistic 3 chord rock n roll and country.
The irony though is that tone is quite different if you play the SAME note in the lower positions (lower frets) as opposed to playing that note on a lower string higher up the fretboard. It's thicker up the neck, with less attack, and less metalic zing, and fewer overtones. So you can use the two (or 3 or 4 depending on your bass) versions of the same note to get very different tones. It's a great way to be expressive. I know this was touched on previously in this thread.
And the irony in saying THAT is that the people who claim "there's no money above the 5th fret" also care literally zero at all about being expressive.
Just play and have fun.
I have spent much of my career playing mostly ABOVE the fifth fret and it worked out really well while I was working for money.
The irony though is that tone is quite different if you play the SAME note in the lower positions (lower frets) as opposed to playing that note on a lower string higher up the fretboard. It's thicker up the neck, with less attack, and less metalic zing, and fewer overtones. So you can use the two (or 3 or 4 depending on your bass) versions of the same note to get very different tones. It's a great way to be expressive. I know this was touched on previously in this thread.
And the irony in saying THAT is that the people who claim "there's no money above the 5th fret" also care literally zero at all about being expressive.
Just play and have fun.
I have spent much of my career playing mostly ABOVE the fifth fret and it worked out really well while I was working for money.
