Thinking in tabs; yay or nay?

[Fergie Fulton]

Among other things, standard notation can convey to a musician, without regard to a specific instrument, (1) what notes are in a C scale; (2) when to play them; (3) how loud to play them; (4) how fast to play them; and (5) how to articulate them.

Tab can do none of those things. It is true that you can derive the names of notes from a tab, but only by reference to an specific instrument with a specific tuning, not in the abstract.

Well for starters a tab can tell you the notes in a C scale.

But i asked the question what difference, in reference to the example of the C scale, not what can or cannot then be added or implied. Not what instruments it can or cannot be used on but what is the difference in the musical principal of showing a scale in tab or notation.
The answer is and always will be none.

If some one wants to use tab whos concern or business is it but the person using it? It seems those with a problem with tab are those that do not use it or even understand it?
We all know notation is the best, simple and most complete way to refer to music...its just not the only one

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But i asked the question what difference, in reference to the example of the C scale, not what can or cannot then be added or implied. Not what instruments it can or cannot be used on but what is the difference in the musical principal of showing a scale in tab or notation.
The answer is and always will be none.

No, the answer has never been none. The answer is that there's a vast difference. Tab does not tell you what note to produce, it tells you where to put your fingers. It assumes that you have your bass tuned one way, and it assumes that there is only one fingering. Standard notation assumes neither and is therefore both different and better.

A tab can never tell you the notes in a C scale because it doesn't work by notes. If your bass is tuned a certain way, and you follow the tabs, something that sounds like a C scale will come out. But by its very design, it doesn't tell you the notes, only the finger positions. That's what it DOES.

The late great Red Mitchell used to tune his upright in 5ths, C-G-D-A. For fun, imagine applying this practice to the EBG. If you do, you instantly render every single piece of tab written for a bass tuned E-A-D-G totally useless. You can't play a C scale from the tab. There is nothing from any of those tabs that you can salvage. You have to throw them away completely, or ignore them entirely, to play the music properly--thus defeating the purpose of writing them out at all. This doesn't happen with SN--no matter how you tune your bass, or how you produce your notes, you always know that you're supposed to produce, say, an A, and you know the difference between that and putting your finger on the 5th fret. It should be clear that this is in fact a very large difference in principle between the two.

Also, tab not only doesn't allow for alternative fingerings, it actually hinders you from considering them, which SN does not. To play a different fingering from what's on the tab, again, you have to ignore everything that's in front of you and come up with something else yourself. IOW, you might as well not have the tab at all. SN doesn't require this, because it doesn't specify fingering unless you want it to. An A is always an A. You see an A, you know how many different ways of playing that A exist, and you pick the one that works. No matter what fingering you use, the SN is still perfectly good and valid. Again, a vast difference in principle.

The point that tab is portable across instruments is not a small detail, it's a large one. That's why SN is a far better tool for teaching musical principles, as opposed to physical actions on the bass. (Musical principles are precisely those principles that are NOT tied to the physical practice of any particular instrument.) I personally am not against tab for anyone at any time for any reason; not all of us have the same goals. There are all sorts of different ways of experiencing music as a spectator or a participant.

But the fact that we're sitting here in a bass forum, talking about general INSTRUCTION, suggests that we ought to be talking about fairly serious learning and thus fairly serious musical tools, which tab is not. If someone asks for instruction, it's much like asking for directions. If someone asks you the directions to some destination, are you going to give the route that is most likely to get the person there effectively, or the route that is confusing to follow, will take longer, and will quite possibly get him or her lost or stranded?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

No, the answer has never been none. The answer is that there's a vast difference. Tab does not tell you what note to produce, it tells you where to put your fingers. It assumes that you have your bass tuned one way, and it assumes that there is only one fingering. Standard notation assumes neither and is therefore both different and better.

A tab can never tell you the notes in a C scale because it doesn't work by notes. If your bass is tuned a certain way, and you follow the tabs, something that sounds like a C scale will come out. But by its very design, it doesn't tell you the notes, only the finger positions. That's what it DOES.

Sorry but this is the ridiculas side of such conversations. This is just the nonsense side of any debate. Any tab reference key will tell you the tuning convertion used any other relevent info.

The same point could be leveled at notation as the note depends on the clef it is written it. So a C scale using the same root position in the treble clef is a different note in the EXACT same position in a bass clef.

The relevent key info in notation then is clef, key sig, time sig, tempo. Additional info in the way ornamentation can be added as it goes along to decorate the idea being presented.

 

[Billnc]

But the fact that we're sitting here in a bass forum, talking about general INSTRUCTION, suggests that we ought to be talking about fairly serious learning and thus fairly serious musical tools, which tab is not. If someone asks for instruction, it's much like asking for directions. If someone asks you the directions to some destination, are you going to give the route that is most likely to get the person there effectively, or the route that is confusing to follow, will take longer, and will quite possibly get him or her lost or stranded?

BADABIIIIINNNGGGG

 

[Fergie Fulton]

But the fact that we're sitting here in a bass forum, talking about general INSTRUCTION, suggests that we ought to be talking about fairly serious learning and thus fairly serious musical tools, which tab is not. If someone asks for instruction, it's much like asking for directions. If someone asks you the directions to some destination, are you going to give the route that is most likely to get the person there effectively, or the route that is confusing to follow, will take longer, and will quite possibly get him or her lost or stranded?

Well what are the alternatives to such things, just ignore it is happening?

Declare a line under it from a date and remove all trace of it or make it illegal?

The way i see it is if anyone refuses to teach someone who wants to use tab, is sending them down the road of some dodgy education by making them fend for themselves. Why not use tab and SHOW them the benifits of notation through lessons and by example, if they want to learn it they will so long as the realise the benifit. Keep them close to your influence and learning from your playing skills and knowlege what notation is all about.?
It is said that some players are to lazy to learn notation..maybe some teachers are to lazy to learn tab.

 

[Billnc]

The way i see it is if anyone refuses to teach someone who wants to use tab, is sending them down the road of some dodgy education by making them fend for themselves. It is said that some players are to lazy to learn notation..maybe some teachers are to lazy to learn tab.

I must be one sorry *(& teacher. So far I have refused tabs in any lessons I give.
I promise I will start sight singing tabs immediately.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Sorry but this is the ridiculas side of such conversations. This is just the nonsense side of any debate. Any tab reference key will tell you the tuning convertion used any other relevent info.

The same point could be leveled at notation as the note depends on the clef it is written it. So a C scale using the same root position in the treble clef is a different note in the EXACT same position in a bass clef.

The relevent key info in notation then is clef, key sig, time sig, tempo. Additional info in the way ornamentation can be added as it goes along to decorate the idea being presented.

Irrelevant. The same argument could NOT be applied to notation. You miss the point entirely: it's not nonsense at all. Whether tab tells you the tuning convention or not, it's still utterly and completely useless unless you adopt the same tuning convention yourself. SN doesn't force you to do this, exactly because it specifies notes to be rendered rather than finger locations to be reproduced, and this is precisely the point. It's a point that's blindingly obvious to anyone who uses any sort of nonstandard tuning, as I do.

The conventions of SN are different because they are only conventions for reading, the same way we use the letter "N" for this sound rather than, say, . They are conventions for understanding the meaning being conveyed, the same way that written English is.

The conventions of tab are limiting because they don't tell you what you're playing, and they force you to play it only one way, on an instrument tuned in only one way.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Well what are the alternatives to such things, just ignore it is happening?

Declare a line under it from a date and remove all trace of it or make it illegal?

The way i see it is if anyone refuses to teach someone who wants to use tab, is sending them down the road of some dodgy education by making them fend for themselves. Why not use tab and SHOW them the benifits of notation through lessons and by example, if they want to learn it they will so long as the realise the benifit. Keep them close to your influence and learning from your playing skills and knowlege what notation is all about.?
It is said that some players are to lazy to learn notation..maybe some teachers are to lazy to learn tab.

Please don't overreact. Who said anything about making tab "illegal"? LOL

So is it your position that if students have started down a poor path, you should keep pushing them down that path rather than get them onto a better one ASAP?

Of course you start where the student is. But every hour in which you encourage them to follow the poorer path when they could be at least moving toward a better path is an hour of their time that you've essentially wasted.

From my POV, tab IS "dodgy education," as you put it.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Please don't overreact. Who said anything about making tab "illegal"? LOL

So is it your position that if students have started down a poor path, you should keep pushing them down that path rather than get them onto a better one ASAP?

Of course you start where the student is. But every hour in which you encourage them to follow the poorer path when they could be at least moving toward a better path is an hour of their time that you've essentially wasted.

From my POV, tab IS "dodgy education," as you put it.

LOL not a over reaction but a point to show that it is out there.

Of course not, my position is always one of education. If a player seeks tab then i will guide them as to how to use it best. I can do this because i understand notation, i can see both systems plus and minus sides.
Since music is a life long journey even if i used tab with them for two years they would still be learning because i can relate notation principals to them as we go.
If they then decide or i can get hem into a better mind frame or position to learn notation then i will know there is a framework in place to work from.

Irrelevant. The same argument could NOT be applied to notation. You miss the point entirely: it's not nonsense at all. Whether tab tells you the tuning convention or not, it's still utterly and completely useless unless you adopt the same tuning convention yourself. SN doesn't force you to do this, exactly because it specifies notes to be rendered rather than finger locations to be reproduced, and this is precisely the point. It's a point that's blindingly obvious to anyone who uses any sort of nonstandard tuning, as I do.

The conventions of SN are different because they are only conventions for reading, the same way we use the letter "N" for this sound rather than, say, . They are conventions for understanding the meaning being conveyed, the same way that written English is.

The conventions of tab are limiting because they don't tell you what you're playing, and they force you to play it only one way, on an instrument tuned in only one way

The fact you say the valid points are irelevent again shows you are not applying the same critera to the question. It also shows yhat you belive the human mind does not learn and apply information. If i read through a tab i see the notes on the neck, so is a see A-B-G-C i know all the options of fingering i can use, i do not have to use the tab reference i can use my own from my own knowledge.
In notation chords limit you to a standard selection of fingerings and notes to use. certain notes and groupings leave you with no choice of where to play because of the physical restraints of the score.
So i see it as relevent because i can see and apply the merits of each system, whether i like the idea or not, with objectivity.

In a modern guitar based band why would three guitarists not benifit from using tab?
It reflects what they want, it is in the magazines and books they read. Tab is with us so it has to be dealt with i a positive way.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I must be one sorry *(& teacher. So far I have refused tabs in any lessons I give.
I promise I will start sight singing tabs immediately.

There is a joke that goes like this: A not-so-smart crook steals a woman’s purse and is promptly arrested. They put the guy in a line up. When the woman enters the room to point out the crook, the dumb guy steps forward, points his finger at the woman and says, “That’s her!”

I may identify a group, but some are always first to identify tehmselve as a part of the general group that I identified. The more that these and others like these complain about my comments, the more that I know that I have hit a nerve! This wasn't my intention, but, some guys can't stop from identifying themselves and with such ease.

LOL.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The fact you say the valid points are irelevent again shows you are not applying the same critera to the question. It also shows yhat you belive the human mind does not learn and apply information. If i read through a tab i see the notes on the neck, so is a see A-B-G-C i know all the options of fingering i can use, i do not have to use the tab reference i can use my own from my own knowledge.
In notation chords limit you to a standard selection of fingerings and notes to use. certain notes and groupings leave you with no choice of where to play because of the physical restraints of the score.
So i see it as relevent because i can see and apply the merits of each system, whether i like the idea or not, with objectivity.

It's precisely because I do apply the same criteria that the specific points you mentioned aren't valid or relevant. (I'm speaking specifically to these posts, not as a blanket attack on you or all your posts.)

It's nonsense to say I don't believe the human mind can learn from experience. How did you manage to misconstrue what I said so badly? It's exactly because I know humans CAN learn that I don't believe they should be taught badly if they really want to learn. Allowing for the occasional exception, some methods are simply better and more effective than some others on the whole. Just as some roads to a destination will get you there faster, more efficiently, and perhaps even more pleasurably than some others. Why would I inflict a lousy method on learners--or at least go along with such a method--if I can offer them a better one in its place? If you were to ask me how to get to, I dunno, Stockton-on-Tees or somewhere, why would I give you directions that might double your travel time and leave you lost or stranded or attacked by bandits, if instead I could give you directions that would get you there effectively in one piece? If I want to show you how to do a surgical operation, am I going to hand you a sharp scalpel or a dull and rusty one?

Yes, you can ignore the tab if you want and use your own fingerings. So what? That says nothing about its utility for conveying musical (as opposed to physical) information. If you're not going to use the only information it provides (fretting position), why bother with it at all? For that matter, I can memorize a standard notation score and play without reference to it at all. The difference is that whatever fingering I use, the SN is always as right as it ever was, and hence always as useful as it ever was. Tab is not: it gets "wronger" and more useless the more you try different fingerings. If you have to actively ignore the tab to play the piece the way you want to, it has largely failed in its only real task.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

It's precisely because I do apply the same criteria that the specific points you mentioned aren't valid or relevant. (I'm speaking specifically to these posts, not as a blanket attack on you or all your posts.)

It's nonsense to say I don't believe the human mind can learn from experience. How did you manage to misconstrue what I said so badly? It's exactly because I know humans CAN learn that I don't believe they should be taught badly if they really want to learn. Allowing for the occasional exception, some methods are simply better and more effective than others on the whole. Just as some roads to a destination will get you there faster, more efficiently, and perhaps even more pleasurably than others. Why would I inflict a lousy method on learners if I can offer them a better one?

Yes, you can ignore the tab if you want and use your own fingerings. So what? That says nothing about its utility for conveying musical (as opposed to physical) information. If you're not going to use the only information it provides (fretting position), why bother with it at all? For that matter, I can memorize a standard notation score and play without reference to it at all. The difference is that whatever fingering I use, the SN is always as right as it ever was, and hence always as useful as it ever was. Tab is not: it gets "wronger" and more useless the more you try different fingerings.

Its not bad learning... its different, thats the point. Its only bad learning if the information is wrong, not really how its learned, that is a personal thing. It points to a note on the fretboard, i am not ignoring the note i am using that note but not neccesary that position. If the tab gets "wronger" then i suggest it is a bad tab.
The same happens in notation bad notation, good notation.
I would suggest that because of my knowlege it is something i do, i see the correct idea that is trying to be conveyed and somehow make sense of it...but i have disproved this side countless times with countless players.
I work the two side by side, so when a student comes across a "tab player" he can talk to him.
Why would i not give him the tools to work in a practical world?

Its not nonsense to suggest that you don't understand learning, in the same way you suggest that i believe that a student going down a poor path....is any different...but you don't see that. Much in the same way Jeffs joke now applies to Billnc its how things are presented that one has to see past. It is for me when i teach to see that information gets through, not stick to one system, that is why i see worth in both.

So jam session...1415 from the A..down from the 5 for the intro, quick change on the 1, swing it. Nothing but info in that statement...if you understand the languge. So is that a bad lesson or is it giving someone practical tools to understand this system?

 

[Billnc]

Much in the same way Jeffs joke now applies to Billnc its how things are presented that one has to see past. It is for me when i teach to see that information gets through, not stick to one system, that is why i see worth in both.

So refusing to use tabs in a teaching situation makes me the butt of a joke? I'm teaching a language that way too many aren't learning. Your arguements are insufferable.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Its not bad learning... its different, thats the point. Its only bad learning if the information is wrong, not really how its learned, that is a personal thing. It points to a note on the fretboard, i am not ignoring the note i am using that note but not neccesary that position. If the tab gets "wronger" then i suggest it is a bad tab.
The same happens in notation bad notation, good notation.

No, it's also bad learning if it's incomplete, a dead end, or an eventual hindrance. All of which reliance on tab is.

I doubt whether we will agree on this, so perhaps it's pointless to continue at this time.

So jam session...1415 from the A..down from the 5 for the intro, quick change on the 1, swing it. Nothing but info in that statement...if you understand the languge. So is that a bad lesson or is it giving someone practical tools to understand this system?

That has nothing to do with tab. It refers to degrees of the scale, or the chords built on them, or to harmonic function if you like. Of course it's useful, but it's useful because you understand what a 1 is, what a 4 is, what a 5 is. For instance, why is going up from C to F a 4? Why isn't it a 5, since you have to go up 5 frets on the same string to get to it, or even a 6 if you count the first fret? Why is C even a 1 in the first place?

This is part of the body of musical knowledge that is better accessed through SN, and to which tab offers no added value.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Much in the same way Jeffs joke now applies to Billnc its how things are presented that one has to see past. It is for me when i teach to see that information gets through, not stick to one system, that is why i see worth in both.

So refusing to use tabs in a teaching situation makes me the butt of a joke? I'm teaching a language that way too many aren't learning. Your arguements are insufferable.

But its OK for me to be the punchline in the joke when used against me?

I thought it was pretty funny the way premise panned out. If you have a problem with it and i have upset you, i appoligise, i did not mean to offend, i thought it funny.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I doubt whether we will agree on this, so perhaps it's pointless to continue at this time.



That has nothing to do with tab. It refers to degrees of the scale, or the chords built on them, or to harmonic function if you like. Of course it's useful, but it's useful because you understand what a 1 is, what a 4 is, what a 5 is. For instance, why is going up from C to F a 4? Why isn't it a 5, since you have to go up 5 frets on the same string to get to it, or even a 6 if you count the first fret? Why is C even a 1 in the first place?

Exactly it is useful because it is a language. As you say if you undersand its meaning it will teach you, tab has the same validity. Its relevence to tab is that it is not notation, it depends on numbers and positions and understanding how they work.
Great talking with you if you agree we disagree, i agree LOL.
By the way never out to convince anybody of tab just show it has a use as an alternative if approached in the right way for the right reasons.

 

[Billnc]

Much in the same way Jeffs joke now applies to Billnc its how things are presented that one has to see past. It is for me when i teach to see that information gets through, not stick to one system, that is why i see worth in both.



But its OK for me to be the punchline in the joke when used against me?

I thought it was pretty funny the way premise panned out. If you have a problem with it and i have upset you, i appoligise, i did not mean to offend, i thought it funny.

I'm not that easily offended. It is actually very true.

Tabs are out there, they will not go away, I don't care. I will not be a teacher who hands a kid, or adult, tabs at the end of a lesson and say here ya go! I honestly cannot think of anyone who can't go online and do them if that is their thing. I've never even looked at tab on line. Don't need them. It is a total waste of money to pay me to write out tabs.

I will not (bold left out because I may be misconstrued as yelling) be the guy who's students cannot locate an A on any string etc. Notes go by letter names.

OP stated they may want to move on. Throw the tabs away is quite a valid bit of advice. One may survive quite well never even having heard of tabs. Does a flutist need to look at a fingering chart for every note of a song?

 

[LowDown Hal]

OP - Learn to read, it isn't that hard. How do you write your tab? Maybe as an easy start go get a copy of Guitar Pro, it's cheap software which does tab and standard notation. You can then print your work in either Notation View, Tab View, or both.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I'm not that easily offended. It is actually very true.

Tabs are out there, they will not go away, I don't care. I will not be a teacher who hands a kid, or adult, tabs at the end of a lesson and say here ya go! I honestly cannot think of anyone who can't go online and do them if that is their thing. I've never even looked at tab on line. Don't need them. It is a total waste of money to pay me to write out tabs.

I will not (bold left out because I may be misconstrued as yelling) be the guy who's students cannot locate an A on any string etc. Notes go by letter names.

OP stated they may want to move on. Throw the tabs away is quite a valid bit of advice. One may survive quite well never even having heard of tabs. Does a flutist need to look at a fingering chart for every note of a song?

Thats the lesson is it not, to move to better ways of learning if possible. No one is saying you have to write out tabs or use them just relate to them if you need to. Use the two side by side and it will soon become obvious which one is better. For me tab has yet to win this one, notation wins every time with a normal education enviroment.
Because students can go online they have access to tabs( and so much other info) that are just wrong, bad tabs suggesting the wrong things, so in that sense i have control because it would be my ideas being used, backed up with notation. But with students that are dyslexic, or have learning difficulties tab is a great option of tools to use.

Ps i have lots of books, mags that have notation and tab...why....because they would not sell with just notation.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Tab is a waste of time.

It's okay for quickly learning a song or something, but academically, are you kidding me?

I've only been playing for a year and a half (music for 7 years), but I know enough to say that you should learn standard notation. It is transferable across ALL of music.

And I agree that if used with standard notation it MIGHT BE useful. A good example is SLAP IT!. It is necessary to read the TAB along with the notation for many of the liens.