Thoughts on the bass "over-player"

[lbbc]

I'm #4. I try to play as close as possible to the original...but I'm also a Singer so, I may have to simplify some parts while singing.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

It depends IMO. No, you don’t have cover the original part note for note, nor do you have to be irrelevant lest you thought an overplayer. The deal is you need to play with taste and not tramp on everybody’s stuff.

I play in cover bands and what I try to do is to capture the essence of the arrangement. For the most part, I play with players of less talent than what is on the original record. Also, the records had a lot more tracks than musician in my band.

So in reality most the time doing note for note covers is impossible, because it’s either going to sound empty, or poorly performed. Best practice is to play with the guys you took to the dance, not forcing parts from bunch of seasoned session players that out number your band 3 to 1.

My bass parts are designed to not only support the rhythm, but the dominant rhythm cadence of the melody line, providing structural tonal support based on the octave of the melody, and finally, making the chord changes sound logical.

 

[mattj1stc]

I've sometimes been considered to be overly busy. Eventually, I find different people to play with - people who appreciate what I can do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an amazing player, soloist or lead bassist. However, I'm also not going to just hold down roots all night either. I'll add a little here and there as appropriate, but I mostly drive the song forward.

Honestly, there are some people out there who would be better off playing along with preprogramed tracks than with people. They want what they want and they don't want anyone else's input or creativity.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Seriously? I can see that being a personal mantra but...

It sucks being the voice of truth.

I play in one jazz band where the other players want to play a lot of songs that only hard core jazz fans would want to hear. I accept that it won't gig out much, no matter how high the level of musicianship.

 

[SactoBass]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

Great post!

I fall into category #1.

 

[lat]

and the days go by, let the water hold me down...

"And you may ask yourself, "How do I play this?"
And you may ask yourself, "Where is that large guitar?"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful bass"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful drummer""

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I've sometimes been considered to be overly busy. Eventually, I find different people to play with - people who appreciate what I can do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an amazing player, soloist or lead bassist. However, I'm also not going to just hold down roots all night either. I'll add a little here and there as appropriate, but I mostly drive the song forward.

Honestly, there are some people out there who would be better off playing along with preprogramed tracks than with people. They want what they want and they don't want anyone else's input or creativity.

This is a good post!

 

[ElMon]

Guy who reads none of the comments:

It’s pretty kewl to play supportive, B-A-S-E bass, 99% of the gig, and then have the facility of a horn player when you solo.

Don’t cotton much to double thumb slapping though.

 

[StatesideRambler]

And I remain silent. I have enough enemies.

“Friends come and go, enemies accumulate.” — Somebody anonymous but very wise

 

[HolmeBass]

I think this is much more a case of “how you do it” rather than “what you do”. You can stick in the pocket and be brilliant, or be a boring shlub sucking the energy out of the music. You can play a lot and be brilliant or just obnoxious.

Most of the most famous bassist, like Jaco, could play a lot and sound great doing it, in the process really adding something unique to the music.

 

[lat]

Serve the song, not yourself.

This means, for me, dumbing down a song if playing it live means that the busy playing that was on the recording will be heard more than it was on the record.

But if, in my opinion, the song lacks something, then I will add to it to make it more engaging for the audience. This is especially true if there are multiple tracks of guitar on the recording that are not present during our live performance. Need to add more meat to the bones.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Always play on the one always struck me as oversimplistic... and just plain wrong.

They do play elsewhere in the measure. They just do it in addition to the ONE!

 

[Keger Jupit]

Thoughts on the bass "over-player"

I was this guy for about the first 5 yrs of my "career". I mellowed out after 1 of my buddies in another (well-respected) band kept telling me he liked my playing, but he didn't want to hear all the notes I could play at the same time! He wasn't rude about it, but kept dropping kernels of wisdom.

Then I had a conversation with dUg Pinnick. A lot of useful info from that gentleman...what a kind soul. A lot about groove, where to sit in the mix volume-wise on stage & in practice, writing lines that weren't just "double the guitar", all kinds of stuff. He was very genuine & down to earth. We talked for probably 30 minutes, just he & I. He was one of my favorite players back then, & his kindness that day insured his reign at the top!

So yes, I mellowed & went in search of the elusive 4th "T".

1) Time
2) Touch
3) Tone...

4) Taste!

It's been a fun journey cultivating both players into one. I try to keep an insistent groove, baking that perfect recipe with the drummer, & use flourishes like spice...sparingly, & tastefully. On occasion, I succeed!

 

[basted]

We had a local bass player who tended to overplay but he was a good player. He moved away and I was talking to the singer in his old band. He said their new guy was great because he didnt overplay like their old guy did. He said it made playing the songs ( covers ) so much better without the extras thrown in.

 

[Ric5]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

 

[somebrains]

Over playing is something that should have been dealt with in school.

If you started playing an instrument as an adult, it's more difficult to break the reasons why the habit persists.

You can usually see the qualities that drive someone that overplays well before you ever hear them play.

 

[StatesideRambler]

A guy who plays at every jam in my neighborhood is one of the best comping musicians around but when he takes a solo I want to take a hike ... long and far away. Overplaying is his specialty.

 

[bassliner50]

Bass over players will likely never play with top tier musicians or enjoy top tier gigs. However there is still hope.

 

[hbarcat]

Almost all the music I play is with a power trio or funk metal trio or other live band situations where I have lots of room to play. I stay busy and play lots of notes.

The thing of it is, that I've been doing this for 30+ years and I've really learned how to play lots of notes and make it sound interesting and engaging for an entire show and not sound like I'm just flapping my fingers or just tossing in generic flourishes at the end of every 4th measure.

I try to stay open to constructive criticism and am always wary of doing exactly what this thread is about - playing too many notes that are there just to take up space. To that end, I may play busy, but every note is there for a reason and I know exactly how every one of them supports the musicality of the song in its entirety.

Having said that, I know when the situation calls for me to play simply and just keep the low end. I sometimes sub for a band with 2 guitars and a keyboard. If I played a lot of notes I'd be stomping all over their territory.

 

[GlennRH]

When playing any cover tune, I aim to stick closely to the playing on the original record. That's how people already familiar with it expect to hear it - authentically that tune.

However, I also recognize that, often, the original bassist does not play the bass parts exactly the same as on the record every single time. This gives us all the same licence: to play it both accurately and in the moment - this band, this audience, here, now.

When people are up on the dance floor dancing, or smiling at their tables enjoying a drink, every member of the band has a duty to keep the good times rolling.

Nobody wants a tune they already like spoiled by a show-off. Yet everybody appreciates it real and alive.