Thoughts on the bass "over-player"

[*ToNeS*]

It's kinda like people who talk a lot. I find them eventually grating, but some other people love talking a lot too, so.

 

[fdeck]

There are no absolute rules for bassists or bands to follow. Even if it's agreed upon that there's a formula for the most successful and profitable bands, the scene is saturated with those bands, and the audience would die of boredom if every band followed that formula.

Show me a town where every band follows the same formula, and I'll show you a town with a dead music scene. To have a vibrant music scene, a town needs variety. That means some bassists and bands don't follow the most popular formula. They (we) play genres that have a limited audience. They break the rules. They try new things.

In my locale, no formula by itself attracts more than 10% of the audience for live music. In other words, "the rules" are a losing proposition for the majority of gigging musicians, even if they are quite profitable for a few. The most successful music ensemble in town is not even a band.

 

[GIBrat51]

Me? When I was in a band - but not the "regular" bassist (long, irrelevant story) I was very much a #1 type player. But, so were we all... Because I wasn't the regular bassist, there were some songs I didn't have a good grasp on; so out of necessity I became a #3. I'm proud to say that didn't happen too often, though...

 

[JW56789]

I know one thing: Get saddled with that 'too busy' rep, and you're dead. Been there.

 

[bobyoung53]

Nothing wrong with adding some flourishes, but the more often you do it, the less effective they become. The song is King. Jameson played some lovely, intricate bass lines. He also played Papa Was a Rolling Stone - one three-note phrase repeated for the entire 12:02 song.

I try to limit my extraneous playing.

Babbit played Rolling Stone, it bored the hell out of Jamerson, haha! sorry to blow your thesis. I forgot where I read that.

 

[bobyoung53]

I switched from guitar to bass when I was a kid but I was never a frustrated guitar played, i loved bass even before I played it. I was very busy when I was young though but gradually realized that it was a lot more fun and felt better to play with the kick drum that to play lead bass. I stick with the song when doing covers pretty much always although if the tune is a very fast busy tune I'll stay more with the spirit of the tune, if it's a simpler tune with a signature bass line that I really like I'll play it pretty much the way the original player played it. I'll even listen enough to try to play any signature flourishes the original player does, I've played a lot of Beatles in my life and will really listen to what McCartney does, he came up with some really cool bass lines and they're fun ti play and other guys in the band will notice when you play them right. Nowadays I like to grove and pretty much stick to the song, I'll throw and inversion in here and there if it fits, maybe do a fill w3ith the drummer but try to keep the groove going. With originals my line will gradually get simpler and simpler and eventually I'll have a basic (not necessarily simple) line I play and will usually stick closely to it. So actually I guess I'm a 4.

 

[flojob]

I can't get in a band cause I overplay.
I'll eat you're children.

 

[logdrum]

Singer-song writer depends on Jaco-esque fills , so need to be creative and soloing is expected. Trio with Sax and drums only and some very fast tempos and some extremely slow ballads, like Round Midnight, After the Rain, Pork Pie Hat. Fast bebop tempos -- Good luck adding flourishes. Slow ballads on trios with no other chordal instrument, you get to let the soloist know where the tune is, so you need to outline chords via arpeggios and everything you've learned in harmony courses. Tower of Power or Jamiroquai cover bands. Let me know how your quarter notes root-V is working for you.

There is nothing guitar about a bass solo if you approach it as bassist, specially with Double Bass background. Not a fan of being in the same frequency as Bass Drum. Hello, we are HPF/Mid crazy over here and for jazz, the BD is tuned higher.

Why does Jaco not feel too busy. Because he was a drummer first. It's all about the rhythm. Same with Rocco Prestia. It really only is busy , cluttery sounding if your time and rhythmic chops are off and yeah maybe you should play as simple as possible but that is no guarantee that you will be a groove player or in the pocket

We whine and cry about music being dead, young people do not know anything, about sequencers and or synth, programmed bass but we insist on playing it like it was recorded (yet many think that sight reading is not needed. )

But yeah, roll a fat one and give me some punchy yet laid back reggae bass, a tireless bluegrass bass line or a crafty number-chart. Easier said than done.

So, rather than wasting time about the being busy or being laid back, flashy versus blending, the question should be , are you a solid time player that can deliver in a wide range of tempos or not.

 

[JoeWPgh]

"Overplaying" is when you do not leave space for the other instruments. It starts with the song itself, then the groove. If the folks you are playing with are busy players, there's not going to be much space left for the bass. If there's space for a fancy flourish, it's not overplaying. Open spaces (rests) are every bit as musical as a struck note, often more so. As someone explained to me many years ago, the notes I do not play are every bit as important as the ones I do.

 

[QORC]

Tribute bands are the devil. There. I said it.

nah. they are a nice subset of cover bands. I've never had bigger gigs or made more money than I have playing with tribute bands. It's not even close. pro venues. Headlined in front of thousands of people in foreign countries and being treated like royalty.

and it can be very very hard to copy the essence, the sound, the stage presence, and the look of an iconic band.

There I said it.

 

[QORC]

You have looked at your avatar lately, haven't you?

yes, of course. I knew someone would bring that up. It's more the idea of the avatar than endorsing a Jaco-like approach to cover tunes...appreciate the difference. NOBODY here is Jaco. he was brilliant. Creative. busy. but for the music he was doing, he was ideal. and his style with a cover band would be annoying!

 

[QORC]

Busy bass parts == mud and listener fatigue. You don't have to keep in lock step with the kick, but keep it musical and don't try to turn it into a bass solo. We knowingly picked a support instrument. Guitar Center has at least a hundred guitars hanging on the wall and 50 amps for you to try if you need to go solo.

well said

 

[Rockin Mike]

Keep one ear on your playing and the other ear on what the rest of the band is doing, and serve the song.
Lots of classic hits have very busy basslines, but they are musical.

 

[glocke1]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

I'm probably #4, I try to restrain myself more and more these days but there have definitely been times I've overplayed in the heat of the moment during some transition or segue. One recent show comes to mind where we were transitioning between tunes and I ripped out some bass riff. Sounded cool at the time but listening back it just simply didn't fit.

"Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” "

This bolded statement is a pretty big pet peeve of mine lately. There are few of these guitar guys that have decided to pick up bass in my area and are getting gigs, but they sound like guitar players playing bass. They hit the notes and outline the harmony more or less (often times done by just playing the root), but there isn't any real groove. The same guys for a lead style bass player around here I compete for gigs with. Nice enough guy, and really has a great sound but I hear a lot of notes in his playing with very little groove going on.

 

[blue4]

I do what I feel the song needs. I don't worry much about being identical to the recording. My band isn't the Rolling Stones, so there's no reason to sound exactly like them. If I add a ton of frills it isn't because I'm a frustrated lead player, I may just be making up for a lack of keyboards or something else. If I play simply, it's not dumbing it down. Its generally because I don't like what the original player did.
And sometimes I'm just not familiar with the song and I need to play something.

 

[lfmn16]

Okay, but what about if your whole band tells you that you're overdoing it?

What if you are in a band that is ostensibly there to get people on the dance floor, but nobody's dancing?

At that point, it's arguably no longer just "opinion", but fact, and a bass player who is (hopefully) able to look at themselves objectively can concede that... if not, they should probably think about finding another band, and/or doing a solo thing.

It doesn't matter how many people have an opinion. If you think someone is playing too many notes, then you are entitled to your opinion. If the player thinks he's serving the song, then he is, in his opinion.

 

[lfmn16]

Really? Remember, there's experiences/educated opinions and butthole surfer opinions. It's like any artist's design, you could do what the hell you want, if you know what you're doing. IMHO, of course.

Yea, really.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[smtp4me]

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. .... thoughts?

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. Who gets to define what it means to be a bass player? The guitarist, the keyboard player, or the bassist? I do believe the rest of the band should be allowed to give constructive feedback, and I'm also relatively certain that the other band members would not appreciate the bass player telling them what their job/role is.

It also depends on the context. A three-piece band, for example, might need a busy bass part to fill in the space when the guitarist is playing a solo (think Rush).

Having said that - like many things, I think it should be a balance. I try not to overplay, and generally speaking, I reproduce the original bass part as much as possible. Where there are fills, I will either play the originals or come up with my own fills - to put my signature on it - but I will avoid playing fills where there weren't any originally.

 

[QORC]

I think in a band context, the band determines collectively (or should) how everyone plays their instruments, or sings their parts. You don't do these things in a vacuum (or if you do, you do so at your own risk). I never intended to indicate that there are "rules" about how a bassist should or should not play. I think it differs from situation to situation. but I DO think that anyone who overplays their instruments instead of fitting into the song has the ability to distract from and ruin the product. Vocalists included. who ultimately decides if we are over-playing? Your band. but more importantly, the consumer. They will vote with their feet. but of course there are no hard and fast rules here. I've seen bassists fired merely for being too out front, too busy. Of course, I've seen bands fascinated by, and snap up, the very fancy bass player too. I think it's very situational.

 

[GrapeBass]

Yea, really.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Entitled? LMAO Opinions may be free but they're mostly wrong and misinformed. Do what you like, it's all good (or is it?).

Serving the song, serving the band means you're playing with people and making music together... in jazz, they call it comping, which is 'complementing.' This means you are listening and complimenting what's going on around you, that's what music is.