Thoughts on the bass "over-player"

[Vanceman]

I'll play how ever many notes I want. I don't even care what the song is doing. I'm better than that. And if I ever get into another band, I will tell them so.

 

[zon6c-f]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

Whatever the tune calls for

 

[Msmith]

I assume if your not playing it as written it's because you can't lol. I feel like if you want to solo/ make up things on an established song you should start writing your own music and let it rip.

 

[dave64o]

Basically #1. I’ve only played in cover bands and I generally learn the parts as best I can. Sometimes I only get part way there when we first play it but, over time, i’ll try to get closer to the original recording.

Sometimes a song gets rearranged or the rest of the band turns it into a jam session. If/when that happens, then there’s no point continuing to play the recorded bass line since it might no longer sound right, so then i’ll play whatever I feel works with whatever is happening at the time.

 

[Moose22]

Tired of this “only do what the bass guitar is supposed to do” argument. Stop putting rules on music.

First of all, nobody is making the argument limiting everyone who plays bass to a certain thing. Everyone has their own philosophy, you do you.


More importantly, music IS rules. EVERYTHING about music is rules. A=440? that's a rule. Time signature and tempo? Rules for how you count and how fast. Key signature? Rules for what notes you play, what chords will be major, minor, etc., What scales will be consonant, dissonant. A song is all of these rules brought together to generate a guideline for everyone to create a recognizable and repeatable whole, be it a framework for jazz or a strictly laid down pop song or orchestral work or whatever.

Your job as a composer is to write those rules. And as a composer, which is what you are if you're playing in anything improvisational, is to decide how closely to conform to the basic rules of music and when it is appropriate to change them. That's why accidentals can be written rather than forcing all notes into the key signature, and why rhythms and articulation can be written in minute detail.

Basically, when a musician is allowed leeway with their part, their value is in their taste. What rules do they create and how often (and how, specifically) do they break them. All of this is obviously context sensitive.

Here are extreme examples. If you want to make a chromatic walk to land on a root it isn't in key, but maybe it is interesting and pleasing. But if you decide to play nothing but F# in 16th notes for every song regardless of key because it's your favorite note and rhythm, Imma fire you from my band because I really don't think it works in context. EVERYTHING is totally context dependent.

So, yeah. There are rules on music. Knowing them is how we play together in a coherent fashion. I'm good with it.

 

[Element Zero]

First of all, nobody is making the argument limiting everyone who plays bass to a certain thing. Everyone has their own philosophy, you do you.


More importantly, music IS rules. EVERYTHING about music is rules. A=440? that's a rule. Time signature and tempo? Rules for how you count and how fast. Key signature? Rules for what notes you play, what chords will be major, minor, etc., What scales will be consonant, dissonant. A song is all of these rules brought together to generate a guideline for everyone to create a recognizable and repeatable whole, be it a framework for jazz or a strictly laid down pop song or orchestral work or whatever.

Your job as a composer is to write those rules. And as a composer, which is what you are if you're playing in anything improvisational, is to decide how closely to conform to the basic rules of music and when it is appropriate to change them. That's why accidentals can be written rather than forcing all notes into the key signature, and why rhythms and articulation can be written in minute detail.

Basically, when a musician is allowed leeway with their part, their value is in their taste. What rules do they create and how often (and how, specifically) do they break them. All of this is obviously context sensitive.

Here are extreme examples. If you want to make a chromatic walk to land on a root it isn't in key, but maybe it is interesting and pleasing. But if you decide to play nothing but F# in 16th notes for every song regardless of key because it's your favorite note and rhythm, Imma fire you from my band because I really don't think it works in context. EVERYTHING is totally context dependent.

So, yeah. There are rules on music. Knowing them is how we play together in a coherent fashion. I'm good with it.

Yawn. How boring.

 

[Element Zero]

Agreed. Here's my approach:

It depends. On a lot of things.

I don't have rules, that makes things predictable for the most part and the only thing I'd want to predict is that the show goes well. For the note for note minded, I have the ability to do more than that. Most of the nfn people I've seen fall apart when something goes outside of that. No spontaneity. I've seen folks who've shedded on "Donna Lee" but fumble around in anything outside of the structure.

I've done gigs where the drummer played jacked up rolls every second measure. In that case I don't contribute to the chaos. I've done gigs where everyone is listening to everybody else and playing the same impromptu cues, no matter how subtle. I don't play the same way on all of those gigs. I have experience to push a groove when needed, fill a space when there is one and lay back when all cylinders are firing. Simple, intricate... they're two sides of the same coin. I'm cool either way.

I think I posited this question on the other thread, for the folks who say they dislike busy... could you do it if you wanted to? If not, is that the real problem?

Yup.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Do those that can over-play think they are superior to those that can't, or simply grand-standing show-offs, likely frustrated ex-guitarists or lead singers, desperate to be the center of attention instead of staying in the pocket? I guess that probably won't be agreed with either!

LOL. Ability isn't the issue here. I've seen plenty of bassists better than I who are not lead-wanking bass parts all over a song and whom I've admired for the way their talent fits into the song. but like last weekend, I saw guy over-playing so much, it was annoying. distracting. it kinda ruined their sound. Of course he was probably showing off, but I think it's been covered here - some music calls for it, others does not. A lot of bass players can do a lot of fantasy stuff. A "musician" knows when to lay back and play the song as it was largely written.

but given the guys were friends of a friend and introduced me to them between sets, of course I told them how awesome they were - the over-wanking bassist in particular - and how great their sound was. it's what you do.

You'd need to define where "here" is. If you're speaking about yourself or a local subset, that completely misses the point.

There are people here on TB who have admitted to hating on people who do things they can't do. Rather than practice they criticize others.

There's a world of difference between having ability and exercising restraint and not having the ability to begin with. And some seem clueless to the fact that while they may have their biases, others may love what's going on. Imagine Les Claypool or Fleas root-fi and players.

tldr: everything isn't for you.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Busy bass parts == mud and listener fatigue. You don't have to keep in lock step with the kick, but keep it musical and don't try to turn it into a bass solo. We knowingly picked a support instrument. Guitar Center has at least a hundred guitars hanging on the wall and 50 amps for you to try if you need to go solo.

 

[Element Zero]

Busy bass parts == mud and listener fatigue. You don't have to keep in lock step with the kick, but keep it musical and don't try to turn it into a bass solo. We knowingly picked a support instrument. Guitar Center has at least a hundred guitars hanging on the wall and 50 amps for you to try if you need to go solo.

... so anybody that can or aspires to solo should just go wank at Guitar Center? Ha! I’ve clearly been wasting my musical abilities!!!

 

[obimark]

I am an embellisher at each major song part change. So for instance on something like She Sells Sanctuary by the Cult- the recorded part is VERY basic (not even sure it has a single fill on it). So when I play it live, I will either slide up high and back down before each chorus, or slide up and play parts of the chorus an octave higher.
But I am not adding "Rush/Geddy" type fills on it at all.

Personally, I think well timed bass fills at song changes help the entire band navigate the song.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If any band, including the one who originally recorded the tune, plays it live "just like the record" all night I will probably never ever go see them play a second time. I'm just not wired to enjoy that, either as a player or an audience member. I have plenty of respect for those who can do it though, and of course many people do prefer to hear and or play it that way.

That's what funny about this... the majority of times I don't hear the original artist handcuff themselves onto playing just like the recording... while folks who do carbon copies look at it as an accomplishment. It is... you're now a live copy of a CD.

I'd prefer to see what other ideas even the original artist may have come up with over time. I find that interesting, even if I end up not caring for it. Beats phoning it in.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

... so anybody that can or aspires to solo should just go wank at Guitar Center? Ha! I’ve clearly been wasting my musical abilities!!!

On bass? It's probably a good idea to try something else. Seriously, how many solo bass acts have you seen? Very, very few. Michael Manring is probably a top solo bass act and an incredible musician. His Facebook page, 31K likes. Joe Bonamassa - 3.1 million. You be you, I'm not trying to take you out of anything but solo bass is a tough sell, even in local restaurants. You're probably limited to coffee shop free gigs.

 

[Element Zero]

On bass? It's probably a good idea to try something else. Seriously, how many solo bass acts have you seen? Very, very few. Michael Manring is probably a top solo bass act and an incredible musician. His Facebook page, 31K likes. Joe Bonamassa - 3.1 million. You be you, I'm not trying to take you out of anything but solo bass is a tough sell, even in local restaurants. You're probably limited to coffee shop free gigs.

Wow.

 

[MegaSwing]

A groove is built on feeling. Sometimes it’s simple. Sometimes it’s not. One must respect the feeling.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Wow.

Just reality. Other than bass soloists at Bass Boot Camp and a music store clinic (once), I've seen exactly zero bass soloists perform anywhere. Marcus Miller is a full band, so that's more difficult to call a soloist.

 

[19sixty3]

Nothing wrong with adding some flourishes, but the more often you do it, the less effective they become. The song is King. Jameson played some lovely, intricate bass lines. He also played Papa Was a Rolling Stone - one three-note phrase repeated for the entire 12:02 song.

I try to limit my extraneous playing.

Amen to that!
Nothing to add, all is said.

 

[leftyjohn]

I used to get very frustrated because I could not play the bass lines as I thought they should be played. Then I realized that I was making things way more complicated than they needed to be. Happiness is a bass line that fits the song as it is being played.

 

[DrMole]

You'd need to define where "here" is. If you're speaking about yourself or a local subset, that completely misses the point.

There are people here on TB who have admitted to hating on people who do things they can't do. Rather than practice they criticize others.

There's a world of difference between having ability and exercising restraint and not having the ability to begin with. And some seem clueless to the fact that while they may have their biases, others may love what's going on. Imagine Les Claypool or Fleas root-fi and players.

tldr: everything isn't for you.

I can only criticize those who play worse than me. That number remains in single digits.

Have and always will remain in awe of fantastic technical players, especially those who play within the context of the performance.

Played with a bunch of Berklee and GIT attendees and grads throughout my band life- mostly 25 years hence...I was pleased as a musician to at least jam with every one of them, fortunate to be in a group with a few and blessed to make significant music with two- being pushed musically by these guys was ALWAYS a plus even if the guitar player copped a few Autumn Leaves runs in the middle of a Poison song

 

[kodiakblair]

Definitely a solid #3 and since I've been playing Ramones style punk near 40 years I can claim #1 into the bargain.