Thoughts on the bass "over-player"

[john_g]

I embellish a bit but try not to do it constantly. And it depends on the song, if Im playing an AC-DC song, Im not going to do anything wild. If its a Who song, Ill embellish.

 

[TheReceder]

In one band, (one guitarist, and basic keys and an occasional acoustic guitar), they want me to add to fill things a little. In another band with two guitars, my guess is they prefer not.

I have to be happy with the way things sound, if there's too many holes in the sound I'll add subtle fills, nothing flashy, it's not my job to get everyone's eyes on me, but I also don't want to be bored to tears.

Some of our best tunes are songs that we intentionally go away from the original recording and make a song our own.

My favorite examples of people making things their own...


My favorite cover of a snoop dog song. Gin and juice

 

[QORC]

I embellish a bit but try not to do it constantly. And it depends on the song, if Im playing an AC-DC song, Im not going to do anything wild. If its a Who song, Ill embellish.

I saw this guy embellish Shook Me All Night Long...i mean, was that necessary?

 

[nickpc]

I'm a #3 with aspirations of being a #1. My biggest problem is lack of talent, or maybe confidence (being told to lip sync in grade school chorus indicates something is wrong, right??). I tend to play with some incredibly talented musicians (I'm one of the few people at my church who even own a bass), so I let them get into all of the "extras" they feel fit the song. The most fun I have playing is getting in to a 12 bar blues jam with them, and just playing a simple line under what they put together. They know right where I'll be, exactly what I'm playing, and I enjoy seeing what they come up with.

 

[Altitude]

I had an idea for a thread here this weekend after watching a local band doing the usual range of covers.

are you the

1. Bassist that generally sticks very closely to the original records?
2. Bassist that adds in constant flourishes in every turnaround - stuff not on the recordings after seemingly every 8 measures in a standard song, wildly going up and down the fret board as if you were playing a sort of lead guitar?
3. Bassist who stays down in the mix, and keeps it simple and in the pocket, no matter what the bassist on the original is doing? Eg, I can dumb-down a song, and by keeping my tone heavy on the bottom-end, "nobody will know the difference."
4. Bassist some combination of the above, depending on the song and/or band circumstance?

Why did I post this? I got a inquiry off FB from a local band who was seeking to replace their bassist and told me they were looking for someone who doesn't "overplay the songs". Who "leaves spaces" during transitions.

And then I go see this guy in this band - very super-talented, but literally adding stuff all over the place not in the song. Seemingly every turn-around and transition he was adding stuff -- fancy picking. Slapping. going way way down the fret board to play super high note transitions.

So thoughts on this? I have to say - while he was impressive and talented, after a while I found it hard to listen to. Annoying. Like the guy was just showing off instead of hanging back, and as the one band said, "leaves spaces in the songs." is it a frustrated guitarist doing that? Someone who is simply bored with the songs and can't help himself? Wants to make sure everyone knows he's playing? Or or or?

as one article said, "WHY THE BAND IS FRUSTRATED WITH YOU
The main reason everyone else in the band gets frustrated with you is simple: you’re too busy trying to come up with more interesting things to play and are losing sight of what it means to be a bass player. Anything too fancy that you play will distract from your primary job. Guitar is cool, isn’t it? They get to play fancy fast stuff and they get all the attention. The keyboard player has all sorts of crazy sounds, and nothing is quite as cool as the drums. Each instrument plays a specific role in the band, including you. Your job is to be the bridge between the drums and everyone else in the band. Drums are, by their nature, rhythmic. They don’t provide much in the harmonic department. (Drummers, I know, I know, you guys tune your drums. You know what I mean though.) Everyone else’s duties in the band are primarily harmonic. Sure, there are rhythms that they play, but nothing as rhythmic as drums. Your job is to be the bridge between these two, the glue that holds them together. By locking in with the drummer, you are providing some harmonic structure to the rhythms he’s laying down. This unifies the whole band and makes it sound like you’re actually playing together. Once you embrace your role as the glue, the bridge between the two halves of the band, you’ll find yourself thinking differently, playing differently, and the whole band sounding tighter."

Eg, bassist, restrain thyself.

Doug Pinnick from King’s X sees it this way: “If the bass player can’t find the groove, it’s because he’s thinking ‘guitar.’ Guitarist-bass players tend to overplay and have no concept of the true reason we play bass. The bass dictates the groove and the feel.” Phil Chen, bassist for Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart and countless others says, “Bass is a foundation instrument, like the foundation of a house.” Chen advises players to “replicate the low frequency of the bass drum.” Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”

as for me? I think I'm more #1, and occasionally, just occasionally, I add in some transition that I may have found on some live version. but I rarely make stuff up and add in my own transition bits. I'm more the pocket guy who tries to stick as close the original (or live) recording of the well known song. Not saying one is better than the other - some bands want the super-fancy bassist, throwing in little runs all over the place, to fill in the gaps. Some bands want you to LEAVE the gaps and stick to the original.

One man's "over-player" is another man's "talented, beautifully melodic and creative bass player who is adding significantly to the dynamics, melody and complexity of the tune."

thoughts?

My thought is that you began your post with an opinion in your head and wrote the post to support that opinion. I concede you walked it back in the last paragraph a little.

First responsibility is the job. As bass players we project to the audience what the fundamental sound and feel of the song, especially the chordal roots, are. They notice when we fail to do that well, even if they might not know what they're hearing wrong.

Obviously, wanking and playing to draw attention to yourself at inappropriate times is poor play. I guess you could play only one note, not a zillion, and if it's a complete clam then that still sucks.

Also, guys who more fully understand the melodic and harmonic content of the stuff they're playing - guys who understand the music beyond just knowing the bass part - are more likely to take a liberty here and there as embellishment. If done well, it can sound cool.

Various:

• Phil Chen is a session guy. He gets paid to play what people ask him to play, and very often sight reads pre-written parts. His opinion is going to tend towards traditional roles.
• It would be interesting to hear the perspective of a guy like Pino Palladino, who makes a career out of playing complex bass lines and making them sound simple. Or Chuck Rainey, who is a guy with a Tier 1 career, famous for many things, among them playing a slap bass line in "Peg" behind a sound barrier so Fagen wouldn't see him doing it and would have to judge by the way it sounded.

 

[QORC]

 

[QORC]

My thought is that you began your post with an opinion in your head and wrote the post to support that opinion. I concede you walked it back in the last paragraph a little.

First responsibility is the job. As bass players we project to the audience what the fundamental sound and feel of the song, especially the chordal roots, are. They notice when we fail to do that well, even if they might not know what they're hearing wrong.

Obviously, wanking and playing to draw attention to yourself at inappropriate times is poor play. I guess you could play only one note, not a zillion, and if it's a complete clam then that still sucks.

Also, guys who more fully understand the melodic and harmonic content of the stuff they're playing - guys who understand the music beyond just knowing the bass part - are more likely to take a liberty here and there as embellishment. If it works, it works.

I think we all have an opinion when we start or approach a thread. I was asking for others' opinions. I didn't walk back anything. I sincerely wanted to hear how bassists here see themselves, and see the busy-bee type bassists. I gave my opinion. I have read others. it's a reason to start a thread. but few people approach a thread with a 100% neutral opinion. it's almost impossible.

Sorry if I hit a nerve, friend!

 

[bench]

Ellefson sums it up this way, “It’s called a bass, not a treble, so please play it like one.”



thoughts?

Not sure, if Ellefson is the best example. I love his playing but he´s a very busy player, often branching out into guitar- or solo-realms...

 

[QORC]

Not sure, if Ellefson is the best example. I love his playing but he´s a very busy player, often branching out into guitar- or solo-realms...

well it wasn't my quote. it was a quote from someone else's article. *shrugs*. even if he doesn't precisely live up to what he said, I thought it was an interesting quote as to how a professional views their role. there are many opinions on this issue. I sat with 2 other musicians and we kinda threw that around as a question that evening. which is why i started the thread.

 

[Altitude]

Sorry if I hit a nerve, friend!

No, just engaging. Look, I get the point of view that bass players should pound the root and go home. It's a widely held position. It's just not very rigorous to assert that a person who doesn't do that is wrong. It's more about the execution.

Like I said above, a guy can play one note only. If it's the wrong note, he's failing too.

 

[QORC]

i think there's something in between "pound the root and go home" and "I'm going to play a fancy 16 note turn-around starting on the 17th fret after every 8 measures."....false choice. I think most of us fall in between those two poles.

Unless you were Dee Dee Ramone..I don't think he could've added a turn-around if his life depended on it...or even knew there were frets past the 7th fret....and your job WAS to pound the root notes...take heroin...then go home. lol. but he played what was necessary for the music they did

 

[Altitude]

As an example in support of the OP's point though - I was talking with the BL in my horn funk band last Saturday after the gig. Dave is one of those guys who does IEMs and backing tracks on all his projects.

Apparently a bass player in another of his bands has become so bad about this that Dave has begun cutting the guy's signal from the mix and sending instead the prerecorded bass backup track. He says the guy hasn't figured it out yet.

 

[Altitude]

Unless you were Dee Dee Ramone..I don't think he could've added a turn-around if his life depended on it...or even knew there were frets past the 7th fret....and your job WAS to pound the root notes...take heroin...then go home. lol. but he played what was necessary for the music they did

Absolutely. What he played what what belonged in that music. I wonder if he realized it or not!

 

[Swingin]

With covers I try to keep it as close as I can to the original. If we’re doing it a different way however, I’ll make up my own tasteful part.

 

[39-Bassist]

#4 Please

1 & 3 depending on what the rest of the band is playing or over or under playing.

 

[QORC]

Absolutely. What he played what what belonged in that music. I wonder if he realized it or not!

not sure Dee Dee cared!

 

[xed]

My 2 cents...

In a cover situation, is the band doing their own "interpretation" of the original or are they trying to stick to the original? If sticking to the original then all members should be sticking very close to the original parts. If it's a branching out "interpretation" then anything goes if it works with what the band is doing as a whole.

Personally I tend to find myself making small changes to the original parts if I think it suits me (ex: original might go from straight from B to A but I toss in a B flat because I thought walking it down to A sounded cool. Or might toss in octaves on top in certain spots if I think it serves the song well even if the original player never did.)

 

[john_g]

I saw this guy embellish Shook Me All Night Long...i mean, was that necessary?

No. And, I admit, we do two AC-DC songs and its tough for me to just play root 8th notes all night long lol But, it just doesnt sound right if you do anything beyond that. The only thing I might do is mimic the rhythm guitar part a little (for example, in TNT during the guitar solo, I might play the riff instead of just chugging on the open E)

 

[JRA]

whether it's a few notes or a bunch of notes has nothing to do with it: don't let your playing separate yourself from the ensemble/group/band and the music being shared/communicated to the group's audience.

it's cool to have rules or notions about what is acceptable for 'coloring inside the lines' but playing well with others (e.g., a good drummer, guitarist, singer, etc.) sometimes requires more skills than the 'arguments'/examples in the OP. example: one singer's rendition may be so unique that the bass should KISS...but another singer may need 'additional support' to carry off a memorable performance. some singers may require both in the space of that same tune.

being able to do what the 'moment' requires is superior to all other considerations. what the song requires, the bass part requires, yada yada = is second to what the moment requires in order to make the best music/performance. the cats i play with* expect that everyone on the stage can be creative 'enough': right then and there! no practicing a part, no rehearsing your line with the band: just play! but the playing has to be competent and reliable so that other players and the audience "gets it!" some bass players can do this (right now!), some cannot (right now!).

i know that many here learn a bassline from a recording (i get ideas/direction from those recordings, too!) --- cool beans! --- but some of us are using our palettes/brushes spontaneously, and the original basslines are nothing more than one 'flavor' to create a treat for the audience. knowing when and how to use 'vanilla' is key.


* jazzers, but tons of cover tunes: pop, classic rock, funk favorites

 

[Nev375]

A few thoughts:

1. Taste is subjective. We don't all get exhausted by overactive bass. Although many do.
2. Popularity of a style might determine sales in some cases, but it doesn't determine "good" music.
3. Things that are difficult to play that require a high degree of proficiency are not necessarily musical.
4. It is not always the smartest business move to cater to the majority. If the mainstream is saturated, go for a niche.
5. There are a few players who can play some real fancy stuff and it doesn't hurt the song at all.

Conclusions:

1. Play however you and your bandmates want to play.
2. Not everyone is going to like you, nor should they.
3. Always question your ability and look for ways to improve.
4. A player who cannot "overplay" has no advantage over a player who CAN overplay yet chooses not to.
5. Letting the bass go high, let the groovin' hold me down ...Letting the bass go high, groovin' flowing to that sound