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Double Bass Thumb position: what part of thumb hits the string?
- Thread starter MingusAmongUs
- Start date
My teacher is having me work my thumb down to not only the D on the G string, but the E or F on the A string as well. He didn't explain it to me in this way, but I think of it as using 4 finger patterns similar to the electric bass, but with T123 (not 1234 like Art Davis' method). This has really helped clean up my intonation in and around the should tremendously.
on a side note...I've seen Francois Moutin play a few times, and he runs his thumb all the way down to the nut sometimes if he gets locked into a shape or pattern. He is a ridiculous player, completely self taught (supposedly), and plays the heck out of the bass (with ridiculous action at that)
-This happened to me when I started playing 6 string EUB, the high C cut my callous. It is built up now so that even the high F on my 7 string is OK.
I sometimes practice doing this but it's not often that I end up using my thumb below the F on the G string. I've been experimenting with doing more of it recently, though.
Not to hijack the thread, but I've been tinkering with the first movement of Hindemith's sonata for bass, and I ran across an excerpt of it with a very interesting fingering in the Petracchi book. Has anyone found that fingering useful? Beware, the edition I have of Petracchi has a note or two that appear to be missing accidentals when compared to my complete part.
Maybe so... but they have completely different applications. I really think they both are essential techniques, not either/or things.
Well, you can get a good reach with a low thumb position as well as use it with strong pizz technique, where the pivot can really be a strain for that.
I agree, we need both.
a great exercise to practice using the fleshy part of your thumb is just to practice scales sliding into the positions. so start on the harmonics of each string except hold the string down with the fleshy part then do a major or minor scale sliding up on thumb. do it on each string G-E. This is appropriately called the "bloody thumb" exercise. I dont know if it is bad to use the knuckle, but ive also hear that its is bad for that knuckle to use it when playing with the thumb, adn might hurt you in the long run, thats why i was taught to use the space in between the knuckle and the nail.
I completely agree with you here: no matter what Gary Karr might do, it's very rare to find a person who can get a more solid tone, perfect intonation, consistent vibrato, and melodic use of the thumb.
However, the question was when you do use the thumb, what part presses on the string?
I personally press on the bone-joint part, though closer to the nail than in the center. And I definitely would advocate the use of thumb below the octave....it took me a couple years of thumb position playing to fully realize this incredibly valuable tool.
I think that it's impossible to determine an ideal location for everybody to push down on, since people have many different variations of shape in their thumb. Look around, you may be surprised.
where the thumbnail ends is the rule of thumb for me... gives flexibility to the string crossings up in thumb position.
While using the bone/joint to begin with gets rid of some of the initial pain of learning TP, it's best to start using the fleshy part inbetween the bone and the beginning of your nail. Once you get a good callus going, it won't be a problem any more, but I have heard of people getting joint trouble from using the bone, so I would personally advise against that. The fleshy spot makes for very good shifts and also works well when you need to use your thumb on the lower part of the neck (which has more uses than some people may think).
EDIT: I totally agree that the thumb should be avoided in lyrical passages as a more beautiful tone can be achieved using the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers. I think is also important to learn thumb vibrato, however, for the passages where it is necessary.
EDIT: I totally agree that the thumb should be avoided in lyrical passages as a more beautiful tone can be achieved using the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers. I think is also important to learn thumb vibrato, however, for the passages where it is necessary.
Between the fingernail and the knuckle seems to be the Best Rule Of Thumb (pun very intended).
to add a bit: What is a good time for a DBist to start TP'ing? Im coming from a few years of Electric, and maybe a year of upright (tho its my school's, barely ever get to take it home, so not a lot of experience). Right now i am ALMOST getting decent intonated 2 octave scales for like,E major, F maj, F# maj, etc. and i've played with it in jazz combo and sometimes in concert band. Should i focus on getting anything under the 12th down packed, before i move on, or is it good to start early?
to add a bit: What is a good time for a DBist to start TP'ing? Im coming from a few years of Electric, and maybe a year of upright (tho its my school's, barely ever get to take it home, so not a lot of experience). Right now i am ALMOST getting decent intonated 2 octave scales for like,E major, F maj, F# maj, etc. and i've played with it in jazz combo and sometimes in concert band. Should i focus on getting anything under the 12th down packed, before i move on, or is it good to start early?
It's good to start thumb position early-ish, because then you don't find yourself too locked in on the positions just below. That will make getting the transition in and out of thumb position much easier to get right.
So, start taking your 2 octave scales up to A, with your thumb coming around the side of the neck. Once you've got those down reasonably well, start working on Bb and B, using thumb position for the top few notes. Then do the alternate fingering working up the D string into thumb position then coming across. Then do the major, minor and diminished 7th arppegios, get them down before you start working on the rest of the 2 octave scales.
Once you've got those going, work up to E three octaves and all the arpeggios, and use fingerings working up the A and E strings into thumb position then coming across (you'll hardly ever use thumb position on the E, but when it comes time to do it you need to know where the notes are).
Don't just play scales, the arpeggios are more important for being able to pick notes 'out of thin air'.
And for a great stunt (not necessarily useful, but lots of fun)… FOUR octave scales with the bow, doing the top part in thumb position artificial harmonics.
But don't go practicing this stuff exclusively… just a little bit each time. It will take a pretty long time, but eventually you'll be comfortable anywhere in the instrument's range.
So, start taking your 2 octave scales up to A, with your thumb coming around the side of the neck. Once you've got those down reasonably well, start working on Bb and B, using thumb position for the top few notes. Then do the alternate fingering working up the D string into thumb position then coming across. Then do the major, minor and diminished 7th arppegios, get them down before you start working on the rest of the 2 octave scales.
Once you've got those going, work up to E three octaves and all the arpeggios, and use fingerings working up the A and E strings into thumb position then coming across (you'll hardly ever use thumb position on the E, but when it comes time to do it you need to know where the notes are).
Don't just play scales, the arpeggios are more important for being able to pick notes 'out of thin air'.
And for a great stunt (not necessarily useful, but lots of fun)… FOUR octave scales with the bow, doing the top part in thumb position artificial harmonics.
But don't go practicing this stuff exclusively… just a little bit each time. It will take a pretty long time, but eventually you'll be comfortable anywhere in the instrument's range.
i've got a big bulbous callous halfway between the nail and the knuckle joint (which i think is the consensus here), but it's only wide enough to stop one string at a time. what about double stops with the thumb?
i've been experimenting with trying to stop both the D and G strings at the same time (in a 4th) with my thumb, such as when doing 4 note arpeggios. i can't make up my mind which parts of the thumb to use, though. should i try to build up new callous at the knuckle and at the nail (on either side of my current callous), or keep my current callous for the G string and try to use the tip of my thumb for stopping the D string?
what's worked for you guys?
i've been experimenting with trying to stop both the D and G strings at the same time (in a 4th) with my thumb, such as when doing 4 note arpeggios. i can't make up my mind which parts of the thumb to use, though. should i try to build up new callous at the knuckle and at the nail (on either side of my current callous), or keep my current callous for the G string and try to use the tip of my thumb for stopping the D string?
what's worked for you guys?
Not trying to double stop 4ths with one finger or thumb in thumb position; instead, I use two fingers. Which two will depend on context.
I never use he thumb for 4ths double stops on anything but the harmonics. My thumb just isn't designed that way. Some guys are lucky enough to have thumb surfaces capable of it, but most of us aren't so lucky. Instead, I'll shift down and play one of the notes 1st finger, and the other 2nd. I rotate my hand so that both fingers are even on the fingerboard. I've also done this fairly frequently with 2 and 3. I suppose it might even be possible to do thumb - 1, where you pull your 1st finger back into the thumb's place, but on the next lower string.
Well, I never really DO this, but if the situation ever arose where it was absolutely necessary...
What you can do is stop the top string with your thumb as normal, and then "pull" the adjacent string by using the tip of your thumb to press into it. It's kind of uncomfortable but it works.
However, for everyday use I'd just suggest doing perfect 4ths with 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.
Two questions for all you Thumbers about thumb technique while on the subject?
(1)Starting point - the side of the L thumb can "stop" notes.
My thumb has the strength/stiffness if it is braced by closing the big thumb muscle across my palm towards the little finger. This tucks the base of the thumb under the side of the palm and lines the thumb up nicely with fingers 123. It has much less strength if I open out and flatten my palm yet I have seen many fine players use this "open palm" approach.
(2)I use "thumb opposite end of nail" to avoid pain of pinching flesh between nail and string. But what about those people who have big knobby joints in their fingers and thumbs? There is a concave dip in the flesh on the nail side of the joint that makes it impossible to create a firm stop. Don't these people HAVE to use the joint to "stop" notes?
What thoughts have ye?
DP
(1)Starting point - the side of the L thumb can "stop" notes.
My thumb has the strength/stiffness if it is braced by closing the big thumb muscle across my palm towards the little finger. This tucks the base of the thumb under the side of the palm and lines the thumb up nicely with fingers 123. It has much less strength if I open out and flatten my palm yet I have seen many fine players use this "open palm" approach.
(2)I use "thumb opposite end of nail" to avoid pain of pinching flesh between nail and string. But what about those people who have big knobby joints in their fingers and thumbs? There is a concave dip in the flesh on the nail side of the joint that makes it impossible to create a firm stop. Don't these people HAVE to use the joint to "stop" notes?
What thoughts have ye?
DP
when i need to press my thumb individually down to vibrato and stuff i press it nearer my knuckles
but mostly i play at the bottom side of my nail
but mostly i play at the bottom side of my nail
